What No One Tells You About Turning 40

Host Carlene reunites with high school friend Sarah Lau for an intimate conversation about navigating life's challenges and joys as women in their forties.

• Sarah shares her experience turning 40 with a 16-month-old baby and a nine-year-old daughter
• Motherhood feels different at 40 compared to 30—less energy but more experience and purposefulness
• Medical professionals increasingly normalize pregnancy in your late thirties/early forties
• Returning to work after maternity leave in your forties can open doors to new career opportunities
• The biggest misconception about turning 40 is that you're "on the downhill" when it's actually an upward trajectory
• Going through divorce in your thirties can feel like failure, especially within certain cultural contexts
• Finding love again after divorce takes time and personal growth
• Setting rigid life timelines (marriage by 28, kids by 30) creates unnecessary pressure
• Taking breaks or detours in your career journey isn't catastrophic in the context of a 45-year career
• Women in their forties often have better relationships, clearer priorities, and more self-acceptance

Connect with us on Instagram @diva_tonight to join the conversation about women's experiences in their forties.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and High School Reminiscing
• 4:26 Celebrating the 40th Birthday Milestone
• 8:32 Motherhood in Your 40s vs. 30s
• 14:38 Career Pivots and Post-Maternity Return
• 23:08 Regrets and Life Reflections
• 33:33 Misconceptions About Women in Their 40s
• 38:00 Navigating Divorce and Finding Love Again
• 50:18 Advice for Women Approaching Their 40s

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva. Tonight, a series on women in their 40s. Tonight, I have a colleague of mine. We've known each other for 20 years and we went to high school together and she is awesome and we're both 40 now and her name is Sarah Lau. Sarah, how are you?

Speaker 2: 0:28

Hi, carleen, I'm doing pretty awesome. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:34

Thanks for making the time to do this. I mean, we really are recording at night.

Speaker 2: 0:40

I feel like we need to because I got to put the kids to sleep and then this is mommy time, where I get to catch up.

Speaker 1: 0:47

Right, yeah, I mean, I feel like this is not just an episode, but more or less a conversation and also time to reconnect and, like you know, just remember our like days in high school, because you just turned 40. Did you turn 41?

Speaker 2: 1:04

Yeah, no 41 is coming up late summer this year.

Speaker 1: 1:09

Oh, yeah, so we are. Yeah, I just turned 41 this month, so it's just like I've had a full year in my 40s and I'm like you know, but for you let's, let's start from the beginning. So what did you do for your 40th birthday?

Speaker 2: 1:26

Yeah. So in my mind I feel like I had this huge idea that it was going to be a big turning point in my life and then, as the week started getting closer to it, I actually started to come to terms with it a bit and didn't really want to make too big of a deal of it. We ended up on the day of my partner and I. We woke up really early. We had sent the kids over to my parents' house and so we had the night before to ourselves, and then we got up early and played a round of golf and then we went out for a nice dinner. And that was pretty much it, I think.

Speaker 2: 2:13

Leading up to the birthday we did a few other outings. We went camping, went to a few breweries, met up with some friends and family members, and I'd say the festivities spanned for the good portion of about a week. But on the day of it was just you know, myself and Jeremy and we just you know did our own thing, and you know we were with my kids on the day of my birthday for a nice dinner. That was it.

Speaker 1: 2:43

And now that you've had a few months, you know, in this new journey I guess that's what they call it Like it's a different stage of life because, you know, 40 is not just the number, it's more like the changes that happen in our body is women, and I think that's why I thought it would be a good idea to do this series, because there's so many conversations that are still hard to have when you turn 40. Like it's all the health concerns and you know you're a mom and so as a mom now, at this stage in your life and you have a very young one, like how old is the baby?

Speaker 2: 3:22

now. Yeah, she just turned 16 months last week. Yeah, 100% agree with you that. You know things are a little different now. I had my older daughter when I was 30. Oh, wow. So there's a nine-year age gap between my two daughters. A nine year age gap between my two daughters, and so you know I, I was definitely a different person the first time around, a lot more energetic, and you know things were, were tougher in the sense that, like you know, it was my first time.

Speaker 2: 3:57

But you know, bouncing back and certainly energy levels managing a newborn were were, you know, substantially higher back then than it is now. But I think there's a bit of a trade off because I also, you know, come with the experience of being a second time mom and so I looked at motherhood very differently and I ended up taking a year off from work and I really was purposeful about that year off. So you know, the first few months of dealing with the newborn are tough. But after that, you know, I wanted to do a lot of things within that year that were both, you know, for myself as well as like physically improving, you know, myself as well as you know, making sure that my mental health was in check. So I would, you know, meet up with friends. I would work on my golf game Wow, you know things that I wanted to do and I had a really great support system at home. So, you know, my mom would come over and watched a little one while I took a few hours off. And, you know, I think that was really important because I knew that, as a 40-year-old mother, you know things aren't going to come as easy as they did when I was 30.

Speaker 2: 5:25

But, that being said, like I didn't feel old and I think that the important thing I think to you know potential mothers, or you know people who are thinking about having a baby later in life.

Speaker 2: 5:40

It actually nowadays I feel like it's not that big of a deal and I certainly didn't feel that there was a ton of stigma behind being a 40-year-old mom to a newborn, which I think is a culture shift.

Speaker 2: 5:58

And the first time that I really came to terms with that was when I found out that I was pregnant the second time around and I went to go see my family doctor and I let her know that, hey, you know, did the home pregnancy test and, you know, came out positive. And I asked her and I said, you know, is there anything different or special that I should worry about? Because I was thirty nine at the time, yeah, and, and she's like nah, all good, most of my patients are around your age and having their first kid. So she never once used the term high-risk pregnancy with me, and so that gave me a huge sense of comfort and kind of validation that, hey, it's okay that I'm a little bit older and having a baby at this stage in my life, because you know, as my family doctor, she seemed to see it a lot with her patients as well.

Speaker 1: 7:00

You know. I'm glad you touched on that because I think that's the one thing that seems to be a touching point, like a point of reference when you're in your 30s, because you said you had your first child and you're at 30, right, and that's a really good age to have a child, you know, because you're still young, you still have energy, like you said. But I think there's a lot of misconceptions with 40. And I think it really has to do with your family history, how you take care of yourself, like mentally and physically, because you just mentioned that a lot like a lot of her patients other than like, besides, you are having kids later on in life too, and that you can do it. It's just that I guess the one issue is is like you're not going to have the same energy like you did 10 years ago, maybe a little bit different in terms of raising a child, right, but I think that's that's great, that you had a good pregnancy and there wasn't a lot of like issues along the way, right.

Speaker 2: 8:06

Yeah, and we know the science behind it is that the older you are, the there is a higher level of risk for that being said, like I wouldn't want others to think that, or or have that fear and, you know, prevent them from going down that journey if that's always been something that they wanted to fulfill in their lives, despite, you know, just turning a certain age like 40. Don't, don't let that prevent you from doing anything in life. That prevent you from doing anything in life, because that, in my mind, we're still the same high school girls that we were, you know, 25 years ago. We might look a tiny bit different, but you know there, are you still competing with me in class now?

Speaker 2: 9:00

absolutely, carlene. I think it was what like english and geography yes, you remember, oh my gosh, I.

Speaker 1: 9:08

I still talk about it now. Sometimes when I reference I'm like you know me and this girl, sarah, like we would compete, like even though I know I'm not gonna beat her in certain subjects she'd be like I remember you'd be like carlene, what'd you get? I'm like I know you beat me, but I got 85, what'd you get? And then you're like I don't know if it was like a 90, some like it was high, high nineties, right. And I'm like Sarah, why are we even? The only thing I think I beat you in and we didn't even take that class together is gym.

Speaker 2: 9:38

I one year I had a hundred percent in gym class and I was like and you're taller than me, so for sure you would have beat me in gym, because you can spike the ball much better than I can in volleyball.

Speaker 1: 9:51

Yeah, that's so funny Because, you know, in high school I wasn't that good at volleyball but I got better with time. Like you know, I'm not like a pro or anything, but I started playing beach volleyball five years ago and it was so much harder then than it is now. But I love that we can reminisce about our time in high school, you know, because it was we had. We had a good group and you know what's really nice is when we message Miss Vasevilla and like she'll respond to like the group chat about something. I don't know if you've seen what I've posted. I posted a photo on my page and she responded to it.

Speaker 1: 10:32

I posted a photo of us from I think it was the athletic banquet and it's a very fuzzy photo, but I managed to take one. And then someone was like where did you get this? I'm like it's in my vault. I have a lot of pictures. I loved taking pictures when I was in high school. My sister was like you're always had a Kodak camera, like you know, so I don't know if you saw it. Yeah, Sarah, you gotta go on my Facebook and see. I post it like it's me you. Um, what's her name? Mylon Yim. There's a whole bunch of us in the photo.

Speaker 1: 11:06

Oh my god I'm gonna go check it for sure, you know it'll bring you back. You know what I mean. It's one of those things where we definitely worked hard and, like you know, the saying goes, we played hard too, you know it's funny you say that like you know, back then, like something like volleyball was was tough, and now, with experience and practice, it's gotten easier.

Speaker 2: 11:33

For you, right, and even in our older age, right? Um, certain things get easier and certain things get harder. I think that's just just the way of life.

Speaker 1: 11:46

I don't know how I'll be on the court right now, because beach volleyball is different in terms of court, like court, like what do I say about that? There's just a different technique involved. But yeah, I think in terms of skillset, you know what I mean. Like you said certain things with age, just like it's with anything like you just have to practice more at it, just like you know you're, you're a mom and you have two kids now and I'm sure you've had two different experiences raising your first child and your second child right, yeah, and I don't think I can say that like one was better than the other, like they were just very different.

Speaker 2: 12:28

But I would say that, you know, with the added experience that I have the second go around, the second time I think I was better prepared and that made me just a happier person overall when I was going through postpartum. Oh, okay, yeah, and you know, my second daughter is actually very low maintenance and she, you know, things came a little bit easier the feeding, the sleeping, the sleeping and so I think in that sense it helped to allow me to focus on things for myself and and really allow me the time to step away from, like, constant motherhood and then go and, you know, do things that that made me happy in the year that I was off.

Speaker 1: 13:24

So, getting back to what you just spoke about, I think a lot of people don't really talk about postpartum and how hard it is. So if you could for me I'm not a mom and I am. I haven't had that experience. So can you tell me or just to anyone who's listening what that was like, what was the hard part about it?

Speaker 2: 13:48

Yeah, certainly. I would say. You know, this time the recovery process was probably a bit better for me in that, you know, I was able to get back on my feet and, you know, deal with some of the aftermath pain a lot better. I did have my parents close by and they were able to, you know, bring food and, and I did tell myself that, you know, it's okay to leave the dirty laundry sitting for a bit more if I felt tired and really needed to rest, and so, in that sense, like I was able to, you know, make sure that I focused on the things that I needed to get done, but also set aside time to make sure that I was sleeping. Well, when you know she was sleeping, and I also had, you know, Jeremy with me for the first little bit, which was really nice just getting to, you know he's for the first little bit, which was really nice just getting to. You know he's a first-time dad and so just giving him a bit of that experience and responsibility and learning how to deal with a newborn was really nice to see. And so, yeah, I think you know your energy levels and you know not getting enough sleep or something that we touched on earlier, but I think that's going to be the case with any age that you have a baby like. They're just fairly high demand. But you know, not something that that is impossible.

Speaker 2: 15:15

And you know, now that I've gone through my first year with my second daughter, like I can kind of look back and say, hey, it actually like was not a bad time, even in those first few months.

Speaker 2: 15:28

And, mind you, it was like she was born in December and so we had, you know, a couple months of winter where we really didn't go anywhere, and so we just needed to make sure that, you know, mentally my mind was still, you know, engaged and and there was something you know preoccupying me while I was stuck indoors with her during those really cold months, and so I decided that, you know, I was doing some volunteer work with some non-for-profits before I had my baby and I decided that, hey, even though I was stepping away from work for a year, I wanted to hang on to some of that non-for-profit engagement, and so I did that, and throughout January and the rest of the months in the year that I was off, I still kept in really good contact with the folks on the non-for-profit, and so that kept me, you know, engaged in adult conversations and it wasn't just a hundred percent mommy time, which I think was really important for me.

Speaker 1: 16:32

Yeah, wow, I, I, I think like this is talking to you now. It's like a difference, it's a different person altogether. I, you're still the same, sarah, I know I, I remember in high school, but it's like it's, it's like a new, it's a new you. You know what I mean, like the maturity level and just like the comfort of just talking about like different stages of motherhood, which is, you know, sometimes I feel that we don't talk about it enough as women and I appreciate you sharing that, because even with me too, I don't think people talk about depression and how high functioning you can be without realizing it, because I've been through depression myself and I lost a lot of weight and I don't think I realized I was dealing with depression until I was actually in this workshop and we were talking about anxiety and depression and not wanting to do certain things.

Speaker 1: 17:34

But I mean, I still went to work, but I was depressed, I wouldn't go to social functions and I was like, wow, I was depressed and I was ignoring certain things with my health, like you know what I mean too. And so when you sit down and like pay attention to your body and everything that's happening, it's amazing how much we can do when we're dealing with so many emotions and like it's hard. You know, like I'm pretty sure postpartum depression is a little bit challenging too, and like dealing with the changes of your body and and wanting to do all the things but you can't.

Speaker 2: 18:14

Right, like you said, you wanted to do laundry but like you had to be like, okay, I can't do this right now, right, yeah absolutely it, and you said it is hard, it's, it's not easy to almost look at yourself in the third person and be like, hey, is there something that I can be doing better to make my life easier or make myself happier? Sometimes, when you're in that moment, it's so easy to get sucked in and, and you know, you start to spiral and and you know one poor behavior or decision could lead to another one, and so, yeah, so it takes, and it it sounds like you were able to to do that yourself. It takes a lot to, you know, almost pull yourself out of it, which a lot of people you know cannot do.

Speaker 1: 19:10

Yeah, I think I'm pretty resilient that way, but it was. It was quite some time. I didn't realize how long it was until I was in the hospital. I'm like I'm what's happening right now, but I mean, I don't think the depression had anything to do with that. Depression may have prevented me from probably going to the doctor sooner than I should have.

Speaker 1: 19:33

You know what I mean when you know your body and certain things, and so when you're resigned, you're not yourself, you're functioning. I was Like I was going to work every day when I had to go to work, but there were certain things that I wasn't motivated to do, and so now that I think back, I know what to look for, because it's one of those things where, unless somebody else tells you what it feels like to be depressed, until you actually like sit down and like think about it, it's like, oh yeah, when I don't want to get out of bed, when I'm tired, when I don't want to do social interactions, when I'm a social person, but, like you said, getting out of it and, I guess, asking for help, to like having someone there like you said, you had Jeremy there and having that person being like to push you to be like okay, come on, sarah, like maybe go for a walk today when you have that someone you know just checking in on you.

Speaker 2: 20:36

That can help you get out of that rut too right 100%, yeah, and so I, you know I can't stress enough what you know a great support system is like key to dealing with, you know, any challenges that come with motherhood, postpartum, but just life in general. Right and right. And you know, now, having gone back to work for about four months, you know it's it's still still new having to come home and, you know, juggle two kids who are at very different stages in their lives and you know, oftentimes I am like exhausted by the time the two kids are put to bed and sometimes, you know, my work demands quite a bit and so I'll have to log on and continue to work after they're sleeping.

Speaker 2: 21:32

And so, you know, just having making sure that, like you can find that right balance with people at home that can really help you out in certain aspects, really helps to, you know, get through some of those tough days Wow.

Speaker 1: 21:48

So the one thing I we didn't discuss. I mean, you are a mom and then you you're back to work now, so tell me what you do. Like I know you where you work before, but where do you work now? Like, what's your background in terms of education?

Speaker 2: 22:04

Yeah. So I studied accounting in school and, coming out of school, I went to work for one of the big four accounting firms for a number of years and then, from there, I decided to join TD back in 2011 in their finance function, and I've actually been there ever since. I've moved around different finance roles in my 13 and a half years there, but I've had a really great experience so far. Great experience so far, and when I came back from mat leave the second time around so very recent in January, I started a new role in a different part of the finance group, and so that was something that I had requested for. When I was, you know, heading off to have my baby, I was very vocal to my leaders that I wanted to do something different.

Speaker 2: 23:03

When I came back, I had been in the role that I was doing for about two years or so, but I had been in that group for about five years, and so I really wanted to try something different, and I started having conversations with my leaders, getting reengaged with them about four months before I returned to work, to see what the landscape was like, what would potential roles be available at the time that I would return. I was able to land something in a team that I was excited to be on pretty much within like a couple of weeks of coming back from that leave. So I recognize that that's not always the case, but I've had really strong mentors and sponsors at the bank that have really looked out for my career and, you know, been able to give me the opportunities that I was hopeful about.

Speaker 3: 24:04

Diva tonight. Glamour for your ears. This is 40, a female perspective.

Speaker 1: 24:11

Wow, no, that's amazing, because I think when you, when you come back from mat leave, it's not you're, you're in a new role, like I mean, that's amazing. So obviously you did all the work before you left to take care of your newborn, you know. So where did you go to university? I remember high school, like we both went to Bloor, and then where did you go after Bloor Collegiate?

Speaker 2: 24:35

yeah, so I spent about four and a half years at the University of Waterloo, you know, and for myself, I think you know, in our friend group in university, I was probably one of very few individuals that decided to move away from Toronto and do my university in a different city. Yeah, that was very important at the time because I don't know if you remember, carleen, but I had pretty strict parents. Yeah, yeah, you know, although, although we had our fair share of house parties at my house, I know you're the only one.

Speaker 1: 25:10

I was like Sarah's house.

Speaker 2: 25:11

We're going to Sarah's yeah, and I remember we have pictures of that. But they, you know, they they really wanted to keep us close. And I have an older brother who you know well. You know he decided to do school in the city but I wanted to make sure that I was getting the full university experience. And so, you know, when we were applying for schools and you know making decisions on where we wanted to go, One I knew that I was going to go into the area of accounting or finance, and University of Waterloo had an excellent program for that.

Speaker 2: 25:50

And you know I really wasn't that far away from home, but it was far enough that I knew that my parents wouldn't show up unannounced, wouldn't show up unannounced, and you know it allowed me to build some independence. You know, make new friends. But also, you know, I look back now that we are 40, I look back at how many friends I was able to hang on to since, you know, leaving high school right, They'll have a very, you know, close, tight knit group of girls that I still speak to, as well as my university friends. And so you know I don't have any regrets about leaving Toronto to do my schooling because it, you know it allowed me to just expand my network and meet new people yet at the same time, you know, still hold on and cherish the great friendships that I made when I was in high school. That's amazing.

Speaker 1: 26:48

You know, when I hear you say that I had strict parents too and I did want to go away for school, but I didn't apply to a university that was far away enough. And if I had to do it all over again I probably would. Because, like you said, when you have really strict parents you kind of want to get away from that because, like your brother's, the oldest and you're the baby. So I think when you're the younger child to your parents, kind of coddle you in a way and it's like, oh, let me go. You know what I mean. It's just like, and I'm the oldest, and so when you're the oldest, there's that pressure to do.

Speaker 1: 27:21

Well, like you know how we talk about, we joke about our grades in school. I remember, like my mom, she was just never happy with my grades. Sarah, I get the 85. And then she's like, well, why can't you get a 90? Something like your friend there, sarah, like you know what I mean, and that kind of stuff would frustrate me. And so for me it just felt like there was I could never get the grade high enough and I'm just like I I am not going to try anymore to please my mom. Like I'm doing this for me, like wherever school I go to, whatever I decide, this is going to be my decision.

Speaker 2: 27:56

Oh, yeah, definitely that immigrant. Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1: 28:00

It is, it is, it totally is. At least we can laugh about it now. But when we're home at like, studying for a test, I'm like, I hope to. You know, I hope I get a better mark this time, but it just made it so much harder. Like you're always trying for the best right, like and and like we, we get all these accolades and everything. But when, at the end of the day, like all those things we, we did in high school, all the grades we got, all the awards we received, I mean that's just the small stuff. You know what I mean. Like, life is more than just that.

Speaker 2: 28:34

Right, when you think about all, our life decisionsary education and, you know, went away for school. Do you have any other regrets, Carlina, Like I'm so curious to know, and they could be big regrets or small regrets. Now, looking back in your life.

Speaker 1: 29:12

You know what I kind of like to be quite honest. I, like you, said, like when you think back when I was 39, there was a part of me. Like you know, your parents have a big influence on the decisions you make in terms of where you go to school and, like you know, my parents are always, like you know, they want you to do this, like why don't you be a lawyer? You know, like these high achieving roles, and I didn't want to be a lawyer, I went to school. So, in terms of my regrets, if I were to back, I wish I had listened to some people who thought I should be a teacher. So I did not see that.

Speaker 1: 29:49

Clearly, sarah, I wanted to be in radio, like when I originally was in high school and I was thinking about my career and where I was going to go. I was thinking of journalism and I didn't get into the journalism program at Ryerson very competitive but I studied English and then, after I took a break from my BA at York, then I went back to school for radio and I don't regret going to school for radio. I love the program. I'm so happy I met the people I did at Humber. But I think, if I had to do it again, I would have like looked into the teaching portion as well, because I did not understand my, what I'm supposed to be doing in terms of, like, my strengths and how I like to help people. And so that's the thing with teachers.

Speaker 1: 30:39

And you know when, when my high school teacher, ms Skolschlak um, bless her heart If I ever see her again, I'm like Ms Skolschlak, you were right, you know I I finally had that moment of clarity where I was like I I now see what she meant when she said we need more teachers like you, because I did not see myself as a teacher when I went to go visit her, you know, and yeah, in terms of that, like that's probably one of the things I regret, looking closely at, because you know your career, like I think I was more focused on my career than anything else, sarah, like I wasn't focused on being a mom. I felt like my, like like I took I was a big sister and I felt like I was a mom to them in a way, like I did a lot of work, like with my siblings and that kind of thing growing up.

Speaker 2: 31:28

So, yeah, I 100% see you as a teacher. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you have such a great radio voice, don't get me wrong. Yeah, yeah, I also see that side of you as like a strength, where you can, you know, work really well with with kids and and relate to them. And yeah, I, yeah, I hope that that could be something you know at some point in your life that maybe you'll dabble in. You know, course, here and there may not have to be full time, but but yeah, I would say, you know, never too late to do anything, that that you really set your mind.

Speaker 1: 32:12

No, you're right. I think at this stage I feel, like you said, there's that that second wave where we, we, we can change, change career paths. And I'm thinking of taking courses, because I think what happened was I was doing admin work and then, when that didn't work out the way I wanted it to, it kind of made me like regroup, like it was hard at first. Whenever you walk away from something, it's hard, but what's challenging, and what you said is true I've done a lot of work on myself, sarah, and I'm I'm sure you have too, because you've done, from what I see, like various things as well.

Speaker 1: 32:46

And, like you said, like I think if I'm going to be teaching, it might be at a different capacity, but I am going to consider like even taking some courses and stuff because, like you said, it's one of those things where there's there's those who teach and those who do right and I my favorite place was the library and I love learning. I'm. Someone said to me you're going to be like learning forever and I'm like I guess so you know. So even even this, this conversation we're having now, you know this is 40, like the conversation is great and I think the one thing I'm learning about 40 is that there's so many misconceptions about being 40 and turning 40. And I think what I want to ask you is what do you think is the biggest misconception about women in their forties?

Speaker 2: 33:35

Yeah, I feel like you know a lot of women. You know, naturally, like like we're on a clock, you know when we hit 40, it sounds like, hey, you, you're almost, you've almost peaked, in that you know certain aspects of your life. May, you know, the opportunity window might be smaller, but it really. I think the misconception is that you know like, oh, life is like on the downhill, but in reality I actually see it as like it's continuing on the upward trajectory. It's what you make of it, and so you know, personally, I feel that right now, you know, my love life and my relationship with my partner and my kids and my friends are probably at the peak. You know I'm very happy of where I'm at with those things, and when I was in my 30s I was still figuring it all out. You know, I went through a marriage previously and I went through a divorce and you know, and there were years in my 30s that I just felt really lost and I didn't know, you know, what there was in the future, that you know that it held for me. But you know, having gone through a few of those tough years and now, coming out of it, I was like, hey, like like a 40 is like a fresh start for me. We can continue to do the things that we want, like now that I know things have settled a bit in terms of, you know, personal goals and my career is at a point where, you know I'm happy with it, then I can go and do things that make life worth living, like go travel and, you know, pick up new hobbies, jump back into sports that I, you know, put off for a while, and so so really to think that life is over at 40 is like a huge misconception. I don't even think that people should think that when you know we hit 50, right, and that's 10 years from now. But I think there's, there's such a you know, life expectancy now is a lot longer than it used to be, and you know we're only if you really think, you know women tend to live a little longer.

Speaker 2: 36:08

Yeah, you know, let's say, you know we live to like our late 80s, which means we're not even halfway through our life yet, and so there's still a ton of time to work on ourselves, to do the things that make us happy and and you don't need to, you know, live so rigidly to what timeline we had originally set for ourselves right. Life throws curveballs at you and you know you'll reassess as you go along and come up with a timeline that works for you. And you know make sure that you set aside you know time to work on the things and do the things that make you happy, because you know you blink and 10 years goes by and you know again. You just don't want to let these years slip Because I actually think that in our 40s like we can get a ton of things done. We are more mature, we've gone through some hardships and you know we can do things differently and smarter and that allows us to enjoy life more.

Speaker 1: 37:23

Yeah, I think you couldn't have said it any better than that girl. I love that it's so. It's like full circle. It's kind of like you have been through it all and I think the one thing I want to say is that you, you went through a divorce and you know I've watched TV shows on it and how hard it can be, especially if that person was, you were so close to them and did you find, like, when you were married the first time and when you started to realize that this is not going to be for the rest of your life with that person, what was the hardest? Like I mean, what was the hardest part? Cause you said you felt like alone. Like you know, there were obviously struggles, right.

Speaker 2: 38:05

Yeah, I mean, you know I definitely a sense of failure coming over yourself, right, like you question, hey, could I have done something different? Like you know, was it me? You start to question your own, you know past behaviors, your, your self-worth, like why doesn't this person, you know, want to be with me? And you know, and you continue to fight to the point where, you know you, you are so exhausted that you come to realize, hey, it's just not, it's not worth fighting for anymore.

Speaker 2: 38:40

But but you know it was a huge thing for me, especially in the Chinese culture that you know. You just like, divorce is such a huge stigma. And within, you know my cousins that were all married. You know I was the first in the family to get divorced and I was just so worried about what others would perceive that as, and when I finally came up with enough courage to tell everyone I actually did it. So all my friends and I had told my parents to have a conversation with all my aunts and uncles, like the elders, and you know long personal email that came from the heart to all my closest friends and I really wanted them to hear my side of the story and, yeah, and overwhelmingly, the support that I got was like more than I could have imagined.

Speaker 2: 40:00

You know, in my mind I was just thinking like, oh, what would people think? You know, like it was only you know, a couple of years into this marriage and it's already failed, like you know, would these people stop talking to me? Would they, you know, perceive me in a different way? But, yeah, it really brought to light that I had amazing friends, amazing family members that were so supportive, despite you know all the things that, that, like, they loved my, my husband at the time. And so, you know, it was just, it was just hard to to lose that connectivity with your family, but at the end of the day, everyone was very understanding and so you know that part of me, yes, it wasn't something that I would have ever hoped for, but it it made me a stronger person and it really made me, you know, vulnerable, but that I could put trust into my close circle of friends and family. That, you know, despite having gone through such a tough time, I actually, you know, I didn't have to go through it alone and that was, you know, exactly what I needed to come out of this as just a more positive person. And you know, and eventually, when I was ready, you know, get back into the dating game, right I had a very young daughter at the time when we had gotten, you know, officially divorced.

Speaker 2: 41:32

She was maybe about two years old, but we had separated for over a year at that point in time. And so I felt, like you know, I was still navigating single motherhood, although she would see her dad now and then, but that I was. I was, you know, bearing the lion's share of responsibility with my daughter, and so, you know, it took me a while probably about three years to to really feel comfortable dating again. But I knew that if I jumped into it too soon, that I wouldn't be the best version of myself and it wouldn't be fair to the person that I was dating. So you and I have talked about it where timing is key right, talked about it where you know timing is key Right, and and it did take a bit of time on online dating platforms and apps to to find Jeremy, and you know, and you know, we've been together now for four years, four and a half years, and you know, I couldn't, couldn't be more happy with the way that life turned out.

Speaker 1: 42:40

Yeah, I mean I saw it on Facebook and I was like what, Sarah, not somebody that just got married, what's going on, what you know what. I mean I was just like you know we live in that digital age. I mean we're that generation that kind of got the best of both worlds, I think. When I think about it, because you know, you met Jeremy online, right, and then your ex, did you meet him at a social event? Where did you meet him?

Speaker 2: 43:08

am we actually we went through the same program at school and university.

Speaker 1: 43:12

So yeah, not very different than than online dating yeah, yeah and, and so I think it is hard to do online dating. You know what I mean. I feel like sometimes when, like you said, when you're close to the edge, where you're just like you know what I, I can't do this anymore, I don't want to do any more online dating like I just like turn it off and then, and then it's just just I think I've heard you say it, like we were talking about the pre show, where you were talking about it briefly, but I had a girlfriend too, where I think it was like her last attempt and then something finally happened and she's married now too. Like you know what I mean, and I think when you're ready, like somehow everything just just happens the way it should happen. Hearing you talk about your divorce and how you felt like a sense of failure, I think that, as high achievers, sarah, like when we, when we, when we're so driven, like I just remember you in school and you're a high achiever and I, you have that work ethic and I think when I talk to you now, it's like you're still that same person, that who was so driven to do certain things and get it done and try to do the best you can for your family, like your parents, and I think you did your best. You really did. You know what I mean. Like I think it's hard, like you said, when we, when we're immigrants, like we have parents that came up to this country and they have these expectations of us, and when you're always striving for the best and you feel like you failed, like I feel like you didn't fail. Maybe the conversations in your head made you think that.

Speaker 1: 44:53

But I think even me, like I'm, sometimes I have that conversation with myself too, where I feel like I fail because society was like oh, you're supposed to get married at this age and you're supposed to have kids at this age, but I, I think I was more focused on other things and I've never been like conforming to what society wants me to be or to do. But I do get like you know, having that person in your life, that's, that's your other half, you know what I mean that person that you go home to, that cause we're human beings, we're not meant to be alone. But I think when I hear you talk about that sense of failure, sometimes I say to myself I'm like was I? Did I do everything right? Was I supposed to do you know, like when a relationship doesn't last, like when I was dating Tim, like he was the boyfriend that I lived with the longest and dated the longest, and when I think back to that too, sometimes I'm like did I miss an opportunity by staying in that relationship too long? You know?

Speaker 2: 45:57

Yeah, and I think, as, as women, we're always second guessing ourselves, I think we'll always do that. I, you know we shouldn't, but you know, the older we get, the better we are at not doing that. But it but yeah, sometimes it takes a real big turning point in your life to realize that, hey, maybe this wasn't all my fault and and it's okay that it didn't work out with the timeline that I had in my head, because I 100% agree with you that I envisioned the perfect timeline in my head of life milestones. Right, I was set to get married at 28. And I did.

Speaker 2: 46:50

So I checked that box and then, you know, we would travel the world for a few years and then we would have kids by the time I was 30. So I like, check that box and then, and then, you know, people change and life happened and I never had a box to check off for, you know, divorce at 32. But somehow, you know, I had to check off that one and yeah, and so I had to grapple with veering off from my original path and my original timeline, but I would say like it wasn't permanent. Permanent because I was able to get back onto, like a, I would say, a modified version of the path that I initially intended for myself, right With, just like you know, a few detours along the way, but I managed to find my way back onto it a little later.

Speaker 2: 47:50

And, you know, and if those things didn't happen, like who knows how life could have turned out. But I don't dwell and, you know, stay up in bed thinking about it anymore, right, you know, and I think a lot of the times, women are so so in our own minds and our own heads about things that are completely out of our control. And we need to learn to not do that, because I realize that that it just gives me a lot more gray hair than um, than I would, yeah, and so jeremy's always saying that to me. He's just like, like, stop stressing. And I'm like, uh, I don't know, it's in my nature, right, it's that high achiever. You know, you always want to be in control of things, but at the end of the day, like you know, we can't stress out about things that we can control.

Speaker 1: 48:42

Yeah, you know, I feel like when I talk to you I feel like they say like I read this from an article that 40 can be one of the best times of a woman's life, both emotionally, sexually and physically, and even mentally, like just hearing you talk, because I mean you checked off the box and it just didn't go the way we wanted it to. But I feel like there's a path in life and sometimes the path leads to something even better. And I think it took that one marriage to make you realize that this is not what I want and you learn from that so that you know what you do want. And here you are now and you know what the pictures are beautiful. I was like, oh, sarah, like these trips that you went on you guys have traveled together, like what was just amazing. The one thing I love to see is the trips that you've gone on over the years, like you've managed to do that with your family.

Speaker 2: 49:37

You know travel with young kids to remote places because you know you can. You just have to be, you know, willing to deal with a few surprises along the way. But you know we have had the best memories going on trips together as a family, as a couple, and I look forward to many more of those well into my fifties and sixties.

Speaker 1: 50:17

Yeah, I love it. I love it. So I do have to say. I want to ask you one thing what advice would you give to women, or just to your 30 year old self, who are approaching this decade? What would you say to you? To yourself, yeah.

Speaker 2: 50:38

Yeah, I would. I would say to my younger self, or to that younger generation, is don't put so much pressure on yourself. You know, I felt like, you know, even coming out of school I, you know, had to jump into a career right away. You know, I never took a year off where I got to travel the world. You know, it was kind of like go, go, go.

Speaker 2: 51:08

And in being around a group of friends who are also doing similar things, I didn't want to feel like I was that black sheep that was not on everyone else's timeline or that if I did decide to do something different then I would feel behind everyone else. So I kept putting a lot of pressure on myself to, you know, get certain things done in life. And you know, now that I think about it, like I would have loved to take some time off and, you know, travel even by myself, once school ended. And you know, like the things that you know, I feel like it's going to be a little not impossible, but a little tougher to do now with, with a family that I don't want to, you know, leave them for long periods of time.

Speaker 1: 52:01

But you know, like would you do a weekend trip though?

Speaker 2: 52:05

Oh, I do it yeah.

Speaker 1: 52:06

Like maybe when you're the when you're younger daughter. I don't know her name, but, um Chloe, her name is Chloe. I love that name.

Speaker 2: 52:15

Chloe, such a beautiful name but yeah, no, I've taken like trips with like girlfriends and you know, and Jeremy and I have done you know, some time away from from the girls. But yeah, to really like take, you know some time and like really travel by myself. I would have really liked to do that and that was something I actually wanted to do. I'd booked this trip to Egypt and Jordan that I was supposed to take in August of 2020, but then the pandemic had hit that year and so, you know, plans got all canceled and derailed and I never I never went back to that trip to, you know, rebook it and do it on my own. But I think, you know, one day I will.

Speaker 2: 53:03

You know, right now it's probably just not the right time for me to do that, but you know, maybe when, when I'm a little bit older and I feel comfortable, you know, leaving some of the responsibilities behind.

Speaker 2: 53:14

But, that being said, like, yeah, it's just don't put so much pressure on yourself to have to do things the way that society expects you or the timeline that society expects you, because I think, especially when it comes to, you know, career, like you know, especially when it comes to, you know, career, like you know, when we graduate, we have about, you know, 40 some odd years of a career ahead of us. So delaying it by a couple months or, you know, taking a break from it for a year to go focus on something else, like it actually is not a big deal in the grand scheme of a 45 year career. And so, you know, really take, take some time to evaluate your goals in life and, you know, and make sure that that you don't forget to do some of those things for yourself. And you know, and the easiest way to do that is don't put too much pressure.

Speaker 1: 54:15

Yeah, I get you summed it up correctly.

Speaker 1: 54:17

It's true, though, like you said, too much pressure on yourself.

Speaker 1: 54:20

I think maybe you might've felt this too, but I think when we graduated from high school, there was something like cause we were in the double cohort and I think there was this added pressure that if you take any time off from school, I felt like if I they were saying like if you take some time off, then you won't want to finish your degree or you won't want to go back to school.

Speaker 1: 54:43

Just get right in there and like, even when I finished my undergrad, and people were like oh, you know, and I went back to school, how many years later, like three years later, I took a break, like after my undergrad, because the job market was so much harder than I thought it would be. Like after I graduated from York. And like if you have goals in mind and you are driven, like the time away isn't gonna take that away, like if you're gonna do something, you're gonna do it, and I think that's the one thing that they don't push enough. You know what I mean. I think, like you said, taking a little break is not the end of the world. It really isn't.

Speaker 2: 55:19

yeah when you yeah, for us it was tough that that, yeah, over a year, you know you're just, you're faced with double the amount of competition and, yeah, and you know it's like fighting for the same number of spots, but with, you know, extra people to get into a good university, a good program, and and that continued, you know, for the rest of our, our education, which you know was, was one big factor that we had to grapple with. But but I hear you At the end of the day, like you know, like we still could take a break, and it's okay, it's okay, it's okay.

Speaker 1: 56:01

At the end of the day. You know I've learned so much from you from this conversation. It's amazing how you know turning 40 and embracing both the physical and emotional changes that this milestone birthday has brought to us. I feel like there's so much more life to live, there's so much more to learn, and I just see you traveling more, sarah, like you're going to make it happen. I know you will, and I want to thank you for sharing like just the struggles too. You know what I mean. It takes a lot to persevere and be comfortable talking about like uncomfortable things, you know.

Speaker 2: 56:41

Well, thank you, carlene. I had such a great time being on the show with you and getting to share. You know my perspective and hopefully it resonates with people. Yeah, to me it's just, it's like catching up with an old friend.

Speaker 1: 56:59

It is, it totally is, and that's exactly how it is, you know? Um, it's amazing. I'm Carlene and this is Diva Tonight with the lovely Sarah Lau. Thank you so much, sarah, for your time. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you, you're welcome.

Speaker 3: 57:26

Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back. Send us a message on Instagram at diva underscore tonight.