Stop Drowning in Timidity: Your Life Raft for the 40s

Attorney Cara Tuttle Bell shares strategies for setting effective boundaries at work and beyond, revealing how assertiveness can be developed as a skill rather than seen as a personality trait. Women in their forties often discover their strongest boundary-setting abilities as they become more comfortable with themselves and less tolerant of harmful behaviors.

Visit https://caratuttlebell.com for free resources on boundary setting and assertiveness in various contexts.

• Setting boundaries requires different approaches for different contexts
• Assertiveness differs from aggression—it's about showing up and participating without steamrolling others
• Strategic timing matters—don't wait until after probation periods to clarify roles
• Approach boundary conversations with positive framing to maximize persuasion
• When you do your job well, supervisors often don't see it happening—requiring self-advocacy
• Start with small, low-stakes situations to build your assertiveness muscle
• Lead with your specific ask rather than extensive justification or explanation
• Consider the power dynamics in workplace relationships before choosing your approach
• People who appear fearless are often just strategic—assertiveness gets easier with practice
• Choose what pleases you more often—there's room for women to feel more entitled

Visit caratuttlebell.com for free resources on boundary setting and assertiveness in various contexts.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to boundaries with Cara Tuttle
• 3:54 Finding confidence in your forties
• 8:25 Cara's journey from small town to law
• 16:35 The art of strategic assertiveness
• 24:50 Navigating workplace power dynamics
• 31:08 Effective boundary-setting techniques
• 39:29 Building assertiveness as a daily practice
• 43:25 Final thoughts and resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hi, I'm Carlene and this is Diva. Tonight we're talking about boundaries and boundaries in the workplace. I think it's very important to discuss. I haven't discussed it on the show yet and I found someone very suitable for this conversation. Her name is Kara Tuttletle and she is an attorney. She also has written a few books. One of them is Drowning Intuitivity. She's a speaker. She's also an entrepreneur and she helps others at the college level setting boundaries and also with sexual harassment. You have quite the resume, so I'm not going to go down the list of all your accolades, but I appreciate you taking the time to join me here on Zoom to talk about boundaries and how they actually affect us, right? So you?

Speaker 2: 0:58

know. Thank you. I'm excited by all the topics I've seen that you've covered so far on your podcast, so I'm really happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:05

Thank you so much. I think this series this Is 40, has made me realize, the more I talk to women like yourself who are in prominent roles, that 40 is that stage of your life where you're like so comfortable in your skin that you don't give two rats ass what anyone thinks. And what do you think as someone who is in that round, Like I mean, I don't know exactly how old you are, but I know you're in the window of 40.

Speaker 2: 1:35

So I mean, I agree I'm in the late forties but I feel like the forties were better than the thirties, were better than twenties. You know there's pros and cons to each decade but you know me and my women friends, our age we really like being this age. We know who we are. We probably are more assertive than we've ever been. Our tolerance, you know, for BS, harassment, harm, annoyances I mean you name it seems to be at an all-time low but in a way we feel, really feel really good about right because we feel like this is really authentic and we're prioritizing our health and well-being and time and wants, not just needs, more so than ever at this phase in life. So I really, I really like that about the 40s yeah, I like that too.

Speaker 1: 2:20

I mean, I'm in my early 40s, so I'm just at the, I guess, at the tip of the cliff. I guess the words at the start of the roller coaster Right, so? And then it's like the journey has begun and you know what I mean. So I think, as I talk to you about this, that even for me, setting boundaries is really hard. I am a people pleaser. I don't like confrontation really hard. I am a people pleaser, I don't like confrontation. I would rather just let the person say their half and not respond, knowing that I might say something that I didn't mean to say, because sometimes I overshare. Right, and so, based on your, your own personal experience with this, let's start from the beginning, on your journey to where you are now. What made you decide to go to law school and practice?

Speaker 2: 3:13

Sure. So I mean, I really thought that I was going to be in a big city working in a law firm and that's not the path that this, you know, has taken. But early on I like I grew up in a very, very small town. It's like one stoplight, one grocery store, like know has taken. But early on I like I grew up in a very, very small town, it's like one stoplight, one grocery store, like nine churches, though, you know, in Southern Indiana, so in Indiana, the United States, and it's it's rural and and the public school there is like. I was in the same building kindergarten through, like senior year of high school, my mom worked at the school. A lot of the men work either at a local coal mine or they worked for the railroad, you know. So it's very different than my life now and there are many ways in which that was safe and protected because it was small and like regionally isolated.

Speaker 2: 3:58

But I wanted to get out and I didn't know a whole lot about the world because I hadn't seen a lot, you know, and so my parents really wanted us, they really prioritized education. Like my sister, my brother and I, we were expected to get good grades. We were expected to go to college. I was a little bit feisty then, but I hadn't really found myself, you know. So I didn't have the confidence either. So I had, you know, I think, like girl power vibes in the 90s really, when I was in that phase and would kind of argue and so many people were like you should go to law school. And I was really into politics. I was a political science major in undergrad, you know, and so the path was like, yes, I'm going to go to law school, I'm going to make enough money for myself, I'm going to be self-sufficient. This is going to give me a backbone, you's really going to strengthen my skill set. And then I'm going to grow into the woman that I want to be.

Speaker 2: 4:49

But I was not born assertive. I was very well behaved. I had strict parents. I mean, part of this too is that a number of the women in my family were in unhealthy and abusive relationships and I didn't want to get stuck in that. So I don't think at the time I was putting that together as a career, which it's now become like. My main job is sexual harassment and assault prevention and supporting people who've been targeted or harmed in that way. But it makes sense now that I'm looking back on my life. But so it was just one step at a time and so it was really individual focused. You know, I wanted to make money and, like be successful. I was just thinking about me, you know. And then then life happens and things take a turn and so I didn't end up going into the big firm route and going I don't go to court, I don't represent clients in that way.

Speaker 2: 5:37

In my job at Vanderbilt university there's a compliance aspect where I helped the institution comply with. You know, in the US it's like title nine and the Cleary Act and the Violence Against Women Act, but really I get to be a feminist at work who's advocating for others, and I grew into this work that I also do. Part of it was my personal experience. But then, you know, younger women were coming to me and saying like, could you help me prep for this job interview? Or you were really persuasive in that meeting.

Speaker 2: 6:08

How did you learn to do that? And I mean, I learned it the hard way, you know, and so it was really during the pandemic where work changed so fundamentally for us that I had the time to sit down and write the book Right, and it's a little book down and write the book right and it's a little book and it's really to me, a quick guide for, like all of these conversations that I was having with mostly younger women, but not all about using assertiveness strategically and setting boundaries, that really leads me to you know where we are today in this conversation. Yeah, wow.

Speaker 1: 6:40

So when I hear you talk about like how assertiveness can be taken the wrong way depending on the context, so I work. If you're assertive, you can be considered a bitch, which is what I mean. If you're too assertive or passive, aggressive, Right? Or you know there's three sides to it, Right, Passive, aggressive, aggressive assertive, and then you know so depending on what the issue is, right. So I guess I said a lot in that statement there, but where I'm going with this is when did you finally realize that I'm comfortable in my own skin now and I can speak up for myself? That's a great question.

Speaker 2: 7:25

I think it started really in the middle of law school when I got to law school, right. So I moved from that tiny rural town to Nashville, Tennessee. I actually went to Vanderbilt for law school. I do work at Vanderbilt now. There were some travel and different jobs in between there, but I was very intimidated. I was intimidated by my classmates. I was intimidated by the difference in like social class. You know, I just did not come from. You know the money and the wealth that some of my classmates did. Now some of them did not, right.

Speaker 2: 7:54

So it was a mix of us in terms of race and identity and international student status and social class, and there's a lot of ways in which I'm very privileged and very comfortable in certain spaces. But I felt out of place and unprepared really for the first time and unprepared relative to the other people in the class, and so I was really struggling with my confidence there and that was probably a low point the first year and a half of it. But then I was looking for tools, right. So there were some early books and I do still recommend them, although this is now 20, some years ago. So some of the examples are going to cause you to cringe, but there's still some good, you know, ideas in these. Like nice girls don't get the corner office. That was one. Women don't ask is another one, which is on gender and the negotiation divide. So at first I was thinking about this in terms of, like interviewing for my career, negotiating my salary, being really persuasive when I needed to speak.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Law school helped, but law school doesn't exactly teach you all of that, you know. I mean, it will teach you to make an argument and cite your sources and that's really useful, Right. So it it helped me figure out how to prepare and it really helps me. The real world, yeah, Right, yes, yeah, and people are intimidated, just if they. I mean, I know it's 2025, but people still think woman lawyer, you know, like, oh, she's a woman lawyer, Right? So they're intimidated before I come in the room, which helps me be persuasive once I'm in the room. Now I think many times I try to be pleasant and nice and friendly and shouldn't be that intimidated, but I do now because I've studied it.

Speaker 2: 9:39

But also, you know, practice, it have the skills to step up and hold firm, negotiate fairly, assert myself and I will say I mean aggressive behavior is not highly recommended, it's very Western, it's very like American capitalist climb. You know, dog eat dog. But in that environment you might want to reserve the right to engage that behavior sparingly. We can talk more about this, but it's not never. But you want to be assertive in the. I'm showing up, I'm participating, these are my needs and wants. I have this right to this space. This person has this right to their needs and wants and you know we try to get to a fair outcome. We're not steamrolling someone, we're not being aggressive, but because our workplaces can be so unhealthy and sometimes toxic and unfair, I want you to reserve that right to match bad behavior with bad behavior when it's going to get you the outcome that you want.

Speaker 1: 10:33

Right, I guess I won't say any names, but I guess I'll give you an example of how I've handled things.

Speaker 1: 10:42

When I wanted to just scream because communication, like you said, being in a chaotic work environment, working at a head office at a construction well, the main head office for a construction company that was my first time working in that kind of environment and this is a totally different round, meaning that I was hired to be admin and reception.

Speaker 1: 11:05

But when I, when they saw my work ethic, like certain people started to take advantage of that. But the where I'm going with the boundary setting is that when I had a meeting with my manager, sometimes I would just bite my tongue and just be like, ok, I'm going for a break right now, so I don't say anything that I don't want to say because of the respect factor one. But I'm new, right, and so I find what's challenging is being assertive in the workplace when you just started the job and you're you just pass your probation period and how to do that, because it's one thing when your manager's like, oh, you could talk to me about anything and I'm like but can I really Cause? Sometimes when you come into work you have that look on your face and the whole office is quiet Cause they know that she's in a mood today or today's not a good day to talk to her about anything.

Speaker 2: 12:02

So yeah, so that's really thought I mean. So your example I mean I'm not coaching you, but if I were, there's so many good things, there are so many good things, right, and just the way you described that example, you are being thoughtful, you are being perspective. You are aware of hierarchy which, even when I think I was shaking my head because the nice boss, the friendly boss, the one who comes in, who's like no, you can talk to me about anything they're trying to diminish the power differential, which can be great, right, some people like hierarchy just because they're obnoxious and they think their title makes them more than what they are, and that can be a really unhealthy environment to work in. There's a whole lot of mediocrity in that level. You know where it's like title, but without performance. I don't wish that on you either, but it is really good to keep in mind that you are at work and this person is your supervisor or your boss, kind of no matter what they say, because they can turn that back on whenever they want. And the power differentials are important to think about before you go into those conversations to help you prepare, because we're not going to be aggressive strategically with someone who outranks you unless you need to be right, like the aggressive behavior in the workplace for boundary setting, I think, is a matter of safety and respect, right and like.

Speaker 2: 13:21

If you're experiencing harassment or discrimination, you're right, which is defensible in the law. Actually, if you're experiencing harassment or discrimination, you're right, which is defensible in the law. Actually, if we're going that far Now most people don't want it to go that far. That's not good. You know that's not helping us on a daily basis, but you know you have rights in the workplace and you have the right to boundaries when people are harassing or discriminating against you or you know or you feel unsafe. But most of the time we're in this wiggle room where you do need to be mindful of those relationships and you need to think about the ongoing relationship.

Speaker 2: 13:50

And when you're a new employee, you're being evaluated. You don't have as much room to assert yourself as you do when you're a known quantity. I have a lot of space. I've been at the same workplace for 12 years now. They know me. That gives me more grace if I'm having a bad day to be like, ooh, something must really be wrong. I mean, my work is serious, so that buys me some room and space too. I've got relevant degrees, so that expertise gives me some room to push or not.

Speaker 2: 14:22

But these things your identity is always in flux, and so you need to think about that in the meeting or the conversation with the person across the table, and that's going to help you determine when it's a great strategy to be passive or a better or a safer strategy to be passive aggressive Although we do have to come back to that, because I really don't recommend that one that one like that's often feels like the comfortable choice but that almost never gets us to where we want to go. But I reserve your right to choose between passivity and passive aggressive when showing up authentically and assertively or aggressively is going to backfire, right? We don't want you to lose your job that you want. We don't want you to not get a promotion that we want. We don't want you to have a tense, conflict-ridden, problematic relationship with the supervisor, right? So we're going to use assertiveness strategically for the appropriate boundary setting.

Speaker 1: 15:15

Okay. So I guess, to help the situation, for you to coach me so that you know who. If you are listening and you're in a work environment that you feel like you have to be more assertive now to express yourself or get that promotion that you're looking for, then this is a different situation altogether, because I no longer work for this company. How things were done?

Speaker 1: 15:41

I came in with an open mind and an eager like whenever you start a new job, you're eager to do a lot of things and because the way they operate is more old school, like loss, it's like they haven't gone digital yet and so I came in and I helped organize like the filing and that kind of you know, the filing the paperwork and I was being trained by the accounts payable and not realizing that the person who is training me doesn't have the same authority as my manager.

Speaker 1: 16:13

So she's acting as if she's higher up when she's not, but she's been with the company longer. So what happened in the context of everything is that she saw my work ethic and how much I could do and then added to that and my manager did not know that all this was happening under her nose. And it's like the same behavior is happening again, because I'm the second person they hired to do this job and somehow it's happening again. So it's kind of like they didn't hire the person that they needed an uh, an accounting assistant or an assistant to the accounts payable, but they hired a receptionist and an admin. So it's it's more or less that issue too, but she was training me to be her assistant, which is not what they hired me for, sure.

Speaker 2: 17:07

And she would love for you to be her assistant, right, because you're there and you're useful and she holds a type of influence that doesn't align with you know the hiring structure or title. But she does hold influence in the company, right, so it's good that you're like aware of that.

Speaker 2: 17:22

But when it becomes too much or there's a conflict, right, so it's good that you're, like, aware of that, but when it becomes too much or there's a conflict, right, you know, my advice would be that you do need to communicate this to your actual supervisor, right, because they just need to know Now they might be fine with it. Right, it depends on the person. It depends on the needs of the day, it depends on, like, the relationship they have with that person, because they might be really frustrated. They might be like she always does this. This is so frustrating and you don't want to be in the middle of that and that's not fair to you and your role. But if you're new and you're trying to prove yourself, you just take things on, which is admirable.

Speaker 2: 17:59

But there's a difference between proving yourself in the workplace and taking on too much initiative, right, I actually tell any of my new hires that I'm like I hired you because you know you were the strongest candidate and you're the right person for the job. You do not have to prove that to me in the short term. I actually don't need a whole lot of initiative from you in the short term, because I need you to learn the job the way we do it. I need to see consistency from you. I need to see you know an interest in learning and asking questions. I don't need you to take on all of these things and not communicate that to me, right? Or I do have, and then other people on the team it's so similar. I have some other people on the team who've been there a few years, so I tried to guard against any new person being pulled under their wing too much, because they're going to shape them for their own personal use, which may not be what we hire them to do, right? So I mean, a lot of this is expecting good boundary setting and relationship building from our bosses, which we may not get. So sometimes we have to manage up right now. Your boss should have anticipated this from that person, and there may not be enough resources in terms of like people doing the jobs.

Speaker 2: 19:17

But where that's not happening, I do say you should communicate that which requires you to like hey, do you have a minute? You know, knock on the door, um, or ask for a meeting. What people have to really really remember is you want to do that at a time and a space that's good for them, not what's good for you. If we're maximizing persuasion, you might just want to get it over with, right, but morning is where people feel like I have so much to do. I have to tackle the day that you are adding something else to their list.

Speaker 2: 19:47

So when really think about the other person, when you are communicating how much you're doing, what you're worried about, whatever you're asking for, if it's a, if it's a raise, if it's a promotion, if it's time off, if it's like you know, additional responsibility, cause you want to learn another area, time it and what's best for them. This strategy is actually called empathy mapping and there are free tools on the internet. Just it's empathy mapping. You might find a lot of things that are about selling a product, but that's okay, right?

Speaker 1: 20:19

So we're not selling this, though, because in a position that I'm in, we're going to get a new manager, so it's kind of like building the rapport again from the beginning, right? So I think when you start a new job, it's always nerve-wracking. Diva tonight, glamour for your ears.

Speaker 1: 20:36

This is 40, a female perspective what you said initially is great, because the conversation happened a little too late, when the damage has had already been done, and so when I had the meeting, that's when it was like listing all my job and my roles and responsibilities from when I started to six months in overachiever here, where it doubled in terms of feeling defensive, you know, at that time, and you're feeling stressed, Right, and so that's where passivity feels safe on a day-to-day basis.

Speaker 2: 21:13

I'll just do this, I I'll just do this, I'll make it work. I have time. This could be interesting. I want to help her too, but we're not articulating. You, you haven't guarded your boundaries, right, about your role and your time, because you're trying to be all things to all people, which a lot of us are, you know, and we want to be helpful people and we want to contribute at work. You know, I mean, I don't ever have issues with people who don't want to do enough. I have a lot of issues with women who are trying to do too much, right, and so it's about walking that back a bit so that you can be more effective, you can be more influential and you can take care of yourself while showing up in these other spaces, and so that's the importance of boundary setting. It's it is. You can't pour from an empty cup. You know. These things are true, some of these phrases that have been around for the older, I get you know.

Speaker 2: 22:03

I'm like, oh, they're all true, they really are.

Speaker 1: 22:05

No, they are. And so I guess, when you're starting a new position and you've been there for a few months in terms of like your once you pass your probation period is that when you think it's good to start laying the boundaries. Or are we starting from you know, like what is in your advice, because you've been in the industry a while now we're what is the best time?

Speaker 2: 22:32

I mean, you obviously have to gauge how things are going, but it's really hard if you're a timid person and you don't always set boundaries it is very hard and you're going to start small because we're going to build assertiveness as a skill and then, like, once you've developed assertiveness, you're going to be good at boundary setting. You can't do one without the other. It's the same for any type of activism or bystander intervention. It's like we can't jump to like superhero mode. You've got to build this and you've got to maintain it like a, like a muscle or like a skill. So you do start small. You are going to wait, it's okay. I don't want you to jump on everything immediately, it's okay. I don't want you to jump on everything immediately. And sometimes, with Gen Z and you know, whatever you call the younger generation, they feel more entitled to to talk to you, you know, and your questions are valid. But I need them to prepare more and not knock on the door and interrupt. Right, and it may just, and they just want to grab me while they're seeing me and I'm glad they feel like we have that open door.

Speaker 2: 23:41

I mean, there are many good things about this, but early on, when you're hired, when you're the junior employee, you are not the top priority of the supervisor's day. That's just how work works. Okay, it's not about you as a person. You have all this value as a person, but you do actually want to learn that like so. You want to be new, you want to observe, you want to want to figure things out, including the internal office politics, like what is the relationship between your supervisor on paper and then this woman who's you know know, teaching you other things, which honestly, could be a great opportunity. You could come in as an administrative assistant, as an executive assistant, front door. You could come in and then realize, oh, there's a need over there or oh, I really work well with this person. We just vibe, you know, like we have open lines of communication and when she has an opening in six months, you apply for that. That can be great.

Speaker 2: 24:35

But if it's not what I, that's where I would be like I don't want you sitting on oh, I'm being pulled in this direction and it doesn't feel right and not talking to the person over here. So you would want to maybe not wait until you're off probation to discuss it, because the probationary period or the, you know, the internship period, the apprenticeship period you're going to have a bit of an evaluation formal or not at the end of that by the person, because your status changes. So you would have wanted to clarify or defend yourself before that meeting. So a check-in at the end of month one is totally appropriate. You know it's like, and I would say, approach that with positivity and pleasantness.

Speaker 2: 25:21

Not because I need women to be pleasant, I do not but strategically you're going to be pleasant, strategically right, because data and being prepared for a meeting, that's all important, but the most persuasive factor is like positivity. I have to talk to my science, engineering and medicine people. They want to like, bring the whole like and I want to be like. I'm glad you are prepared, but almost always your supervisor, the boss, decision maker, doesn't need all that. If I need it, I'll ask for it.

Speaker 2: 25:51

But if you're like here's why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why. I'm like get to the point. I'd much rather someone lead with the ask and then have the rationale if I need it. It's about, like, really being efficient, pleasant. What's the value add you're giving to that person? So I would say that person be like hey, you know I love working here. Again, thank you for the opportunity. Um, I feel like I'm learning a lot, you know I I do feel like I'm being pulled in in different directions.

Speaker 2: 26:17

I just want to make sure you know that that's how this job is supposed to be. Or, if there's a need over there, you know that I didn't think this was the job I hired to do. I'm not complaining about that. I just want to make sure I'm meeting your expectations and you may be very concerned about that. You may be like I do not want to work for that woman anymore. But, like, again, let's package it in a way that is keeping you seeming really engaged and professional, that's maximizing persuasion, so that you get the outcome that you want.

Speaker 2: 26:46

It may just be clarity, it may just be the check-in, it may be moving further towards the job you applied for and away from the person who sees you as an opportunity, or it could be. I mean, I could easily be like if you are helping her and that's fun for you. Thank you, we needed more help in that area and I just don't have a position right now right, because other people above me make those hiring decisions about when I can hire or not but we can shuffle the work around in the workplace. That might be ideal for everyone, but you're not going to know till you check in. So you just don't want to sit in passivity. You just don't want to sit not sure because also that's stressful for you the whole time where you're like I think it's this, I hope I'm doing a good job. You know, eventually, just go get those answers.

Speaker 1: 27:29

Yeah, yeah. I think the one thing that I have a problem with is like having that meeting at the one month point I think I was waiting for after three months to have the meeting and it I was like it wasn't happening because always busy, right, like you said, and you don't want to get them at the wrong time, and like obviously, eventually we had the meeting, not because I asked, but because she was observing what was happening in her department and she was like this is not happening again. No, no, no.

Speaker 2: 27:58

Well, you don't want her to come to you and make it like you did something wrong, right, because you're new, actually Like you're new, and it's really the other person who was pulling you into the other work. So you look great, you look professional.

Speaker 1: 28:14

Yeah, I look like I was. I was, I was doing a lot of work and I didn't realize that until I was in the meeting, going over the list of my roles and responsibilities and being like no wonder, I'm burnt out, right.

Speaker 2: 28:28

Right, yeah, yeah. So we just want to get ahead of that.

Speaker 1: 28:32

Right.

Speaker 2: 28:33

It's not every day. You can't become like they don't want to tend to you every day. No, they don't.

Speaker 2: 28:39

I don't want to learn about something that I could have addressed three months ago either. Right? So everything's a balancing act. You do want to observe and learn my team. They have learned me and they should learn me right that, like I like quiet time in the morning, I do a lot of work in the morning, then I usually have an afternoon lull where I will come out and get a snack and sometimes and I try to sit in either our conference room, you know, our opening lobby area and be more personable that's a great time to ask me for something, cause I'm like primed to say yes, you know, I'm like sure that'd be great If they want that.

Speaker 2: 29:13

That's a great time to ask me something now, casually and the small ask you if I'm taking a break, and it's my first break of the day. You don't want to take that over. You know. You really want to read the scene, because sometimes, when I'm stressed and busy, I come in and to my wonderful administrative assistant who does so much gatekeeping for me, I say don't let them swarm me, you know, unless the building's on fire. I needed to wait a few hours, you know, but I set my own boundaries.

Speaker 2: 29:44

Now. I've been practicing this a long time. She helps me gatekeep and I communicate that to them, and also that's better for them because they don't know that right, the people who work upstairs didn't see me come in, they don't know what kind of mood I'm in, but it helps them not get a frustrated answer or a stressed answer from me, because I've just articulated that at the get go and then I'll come out and then I'll be like sorry, I really needed to focus on that thing. Does anyone need anything? Right, that's the moment for them to, and then they're still flexible. It's like sure, if you've got a moment. But I got to tell you I want to say yes to the things that are so efficiently given to me. Right, lead with the ask, have your rationale ready, but don't spend so much time telling me. Don't make me do the work of figuring out what you're actually asking for.

Speaker 1: 30:37

Yeah, more likely to get the yes, yeah, yeah, no, I think it's. It's important to be able to articulate yourself and ask, because I think that's the communication barrier too. When you're not able to communicate what you need or maybe not, it's not coming out the right way. You know what I mean when you're, when you're in the hot seat. Because you feel like you're in the hot seat, it's just a meeting with you and your manager, right, and there's no one else there. It's just like, and then she's got her notebook and and so you're just, you know, like with any she knew she was having the meeting and she knew she was going to have the conversation.

Speaker 2: 31:06

So this is not fair, right? Yeah, I think I realized this.

Speaker 1: 31:10

I think I knew I was having the meeting too, so, okay, I lucked out that between the time that we both, that my colleague had told me like prior, she's like make sure you write down every single thing you do, because that's good they don't forget in the moment.

Speaker 2: 31:25

Yeah, and they don't know. They really don't. I mean that's such a key point when you do your job well, I don't have to see it, you know it. I mean that's such a key point when you do your job well, I don't have to see it, you know, it's just getting done.

Speaker 1: 31:38

That's the dream, you know. Oh yeah, I was the dream. I was the dream in the beginning. Oh, she's like oh my God, you're totally different. And I take notes and like all these things Right, and so, yes, this is common.

Speaker 2: 31:49

Yeah. So this is really common among women is we think we'll do a good job and they will recognize it. But you got to remember how busy and self-absorbed most people are, right, and so it's like if that problem is not on my desk, I don't have to see it. I don't even know necessarily who did it. I do at my workplace, come back and be like you know I'll even be like who cleaned the conference room or who wiped the table down. You know it's like it's not one person's job, it's all our job actually, you know. So I try to ask later and then recognize and thank someone, but most of the time I am not seeing it as it's getting done. So if you are waiting for your gold star to be given by someone, you have to like we're not in school anymore. You know it's not their job to grade your paper, it's work which is different, and so you do sometimes have to toot your own horn or and you don't have to brag about it, but you can be like at the appropriate time. You know I was working on this, I was working on this, I was working on this, and you can even flip it. So it sounds like you're asking for feedback from them when you're actually making sure that they know everything that you did. But you can be like did I handle that well? Is there anything that you would recommend I do differently? There'll be plenty of times we'll be like I didn't even know you were handling that, but thank you Right.

Speaker 2: 33:08

So framing all of these conversations is key. It involves prep work, which we don't always have time for is key. It involves prep work, which we don't always have time for, but when we practice assertiveness which I think we've talked about but not really gotten to how you start is going to make you better prepared for the impromptu conversation. It's going to make you better prepared for the formal scheduled conversation. What I saw was a lot of women trying to come to me the day before they needed to negotiate their salary and listen, I'll help you. You need a script. Reach out to me, I'll send you some language.

Speaker 2: 33:37

But that's never going to be as effective as we hope, because we're cramming the night before and you might get the right words out of your mouth, but then I need you to not undermine your position or to get off the phone or to get out of the meeting, and that's what's really hard for people because they're like okay, here's how I make the ask, here are the words. I can say the words, but there are so many other things going on. But I was just thinking like, oh, this is never going to work if we just do this once every three to five years or just once a year even. You know, we like you to really be assertive and engaged and propelling your career forward or your relationship forward or whatever it is we're working on. You really have to show up and assert yourself on a daily basis. That starts with you have to figure out where you are right. You have to do some sort of assessment. There are some free online tools. There's some worksheets in my book, you know, but you can really start today just by figuring out some simple things.

Speaker 2: 34:37

So, if you are, I'm always on a college campus, so those are my examples come from. So I'm like, if you're walking across campus and some of the sidewalks are narrow, are you always the person who moves or not? Because that's going to tell you something, and sometimes that's polite, and sometimes we want to give the other people more room because that is the right thing to do, but if, are you always inconveniencing yourself for others. If you're on a plane, are you a person who claims the armrest, or do you never get an armrest right? Are you always folding yourself in to take up less space and letting the random humans you don't know have one or both arm rests? That's going to tell you something about who you are and how you engage right are. Now, you know I'm a lawyer. We're terrible at this. We interrupt people all of the time. It's kind of the nature of the profession and we should work on that.

Speaker 1: 35:26

But are you the person. Sometimes, when you do that, that is when you get your point across and that's the money, that's the moneymaker, that's like that's the moneymaker, that's your Harvey Specter moments. You know I'm pretty, I hope you know. Well, a lot of people know who Harvey Specter is, from Suits, right, and so I think he is as an actor. He is the epitome of what it means to be in a courtroom and command a room, or even in a conference room.

Speaker 2: 36:00

Yes, even in the conference room. Yeah, you can do that. You can like enjoy your shows. And I have other workshops or worksheets. I get out in a workshop and you know I can put for your listeners. I'm happy to put some of these up for free on my website.

Speaker 2: 36:14

But one of them is you know, for the introvert, like this feels very hard, right? I love the Enneagram, you know, for different numbers. There's Myers-Briggs, there's all these personality tests. I highly recommend those. Start with those. That'll help you learn about yourself.

Speaker 2: 36:28

But then you're going to have to take the knowledge or the assessment out of your head and put it into practice. You are. You're going to have to ask for something. You're going to have to speak up in a meeting. So pick the low stakes thing first, so it feels safe. All right, just try to talk once every meeting. That's your practice. So then, when you're ready, you feel you do a better job for the tough thing.

Speaker 2: 36:53

Some people think I'm fearless. I am not fearless. I'm not. It's strategic and I'm exhausted at the end of the day and sometimes I just like all face down and, you know, in my dress and heels at the end of the day and I'm like, oh, but I did the best I could. So I can at least be satisfied at the end of the day that I tried Right. That I tried right it doesn't mean it's easy. It does get easier. Sometimes I need to dial it back now. I've been doing it too long. Sometimes I'm like, okay, you do not need to be this assertive when you are deciding what we're eating for dinner outside of the workplace.

Speaker 1: 37:20

Dial it back here, you know so whereas I'm staring at the menu still, and they're like looking at me oh, ma'am, miss, have you figured out? Like I'm just like give me a minute, I still need a minute. Or just like walk back and be like do I want the Angus or do that's me? I would do I want the Angus or do I want the cheapest meal on the menu?

Speaker 2: 37:41

This is a balancing act, but I would, even in the restaurant I would be like I think there's so much space for women and especially like women, choose what pleases you, get what pleases you. If your budget is the overriding concern, you don't want to be stressed about that later, so choose the cheaper meal. But if you don't know, like sometimes, just choose what pleases you, feed that for a while and then that's actually going to make you more assertive. Right, I want you to feel entitled. Entitled is a problem when it's paired with privilege. Right, and then when we're trampling people's rights. But there's so much room for women to feel more entitled. Right, our rights are being trampled. Sometimes we do not feel safe. Sometimes our work is being overlooked in the workplace. I could handle a whole lot more of entitlement, so that we are setting boundaries that outline our rights.

Speaker 2: 38:28

It is not bad for you to choose the pleasurable item on the menu. Choose what you want. You know it's not what we need. There's a lot we don't need, you know. I mean, like, in certain constraints we need to focus on needs.

Speaker 2: 38:41

But if women had more, I mean we're going in a different direction here, like into the pleasure conversation. It lessen work. But I want you to have a good time at work, I want you to feel fulfilled at work, I want you treated fairly at work. But passive behavior and passive aggressive behavior is not going to get you there, because other people are focused on themselves, are showing up for themselves. The guy on TV show, that's a model to watch, like think of your three people. You know, and I mean I'm older, so I loved Claire Huxtable on the Cosby Show. She was a role model, you know, and I mean I thought I was never going to grow into that, but I was like, oh man, I would love to handle a situation, you know, like Felicia Rashad, like Claire Huxtable. You know, and I like I think maybe I'm approaching it now.

Speaker 2: 39:28

You know, at this age and this stage of my career. But oh my gosh, I was nothing like that before you know. I think I was like quiet kind of angsty person Cause I was. I didn't feel like people were including me or hearing me and that I wasn't getting what I wanted. You gotta be clear, you know, you gotta find it. But then I'll tell you so once you've tried, once you've put yourself out there, once you've shown up in the meeting and you engage and you say I think we should do this because and you get your win, it's so satisfying and it keeps you going and you learn that you survived the tough meeting and you survived the tough conversation we do. We've survived them all so far. You know we have. It might be.

Speaker 1: 40:09

Yes, right, yeah, it takes a while, but for sure you're stronger than you think.

Speaker 1: 40:16

I think. I think that, yes, right, yes, yeah, that is a lot, and I think it's one of those things where it's like you said, you have to start small and then recognizing your wins and like just that positive self-talk. I think a lot of us have to work on that too, that we can do this and then do it so, like when you're coaching. I think it's important to say that we will have another conversation about boundaries in different contexts. When it comes to relationships like with your partner, someone you're dating, friends and family partner, someone you're dating yes, friends and family like there's so many things where we need to set our boundaries, because I will allude to this that I'm learning now that with one of my siblings, I have to set boundaries because it's taking a toll, like in certain situation, it's taking a toll, it does, yeah, and so it is.

Speaker 2: 41:10

I think it's where we started. I think we're back to where we started, but you're stronger than you think, and that's why women in their 40s, we have learned it. You know, there's always more to learn, we can be better, but we we've learned that we're stronger than we're thinking, so we are so well poised to set the best boundaries we ever have in our life. Now's the time.

Speaker 1: 41:31

Yeah, oh, yes, because I think, like you said, like now we're in that era where we've been through different scenarios and learn from those experiences, where we're like I don't want that to happen again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. So it's so nice to meet you and have you on the show. Cara Tuttle Bell, right, do you like? Do you like the whole when people say your full name?

Speaker 2: 41:59

or well, I'm in the process. I mean, this is women on life face. So I got divorced a few years ago. I've dropped the bell. It's still on all the books and things, so you know, yeah, yeah, I'm not offended, but I'm.

Speaker 2: 42:08

I'm going back to Cara Tuttle, which, yes, practice, um, but you can find me online at caratuttlebellcom. Right, so I'm not offended, but I'm going back to Caratotal, which is in practice, but you can find me online at caratotalbellcom. So I'm really just in the midst of it as we speak, but I will. There's like a chapter in my book for each of the things we talked about Work, you know, romantic and sexual relationships, family. There's worksheets in there, but I'll put some free tools on my website for your listeners, and so you can find me at caracatabellecom.

Speaker 1: 42:35

You know, as we were, just discussing and that's where those will be yes, and so the book is Drowning in Timidity. Yeah, like I write this book.

Speaker 2: 42:45

Women, politeness, I know I was like yeah, I've said it a million times, you know.

Speaker 1: 42:53

I mean it takes a scholar like yourself to figure out the way. Like I mean the title of your book, the title of anything really like. Even me with diva tonight, I could tell you I've had a few opinions on this title from like.

Speaker 2: 43:08

I thought it was great, I thought it was fun. I was like this will be a fun conversation, I want to be there.

Speaker 1: 43:13

Yes, of course. No, it has been fun and I feel like you did coach me and I I think like if I had to do it again, I would tread lightly because I think I came in strong and that's love. Yeah, but we want to be strategic, yeah, definitely. So I'm Carlene and this is Diva Tonight with Cara Tuttle-Bellcom. If you want to go on her website, she's going to include some great resources for you and me. We need all the help we can get in this life, especially when it comes to setting boundaries. So thank you so much and I know you'll be back, is that right? You'll be back on.

Speaker 2: 43:52

Thank you, I'd be very happy to be back. I feel like we could talk for hours, so we will Over time, for sure.

Speaker 3: 43:58

Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back. Send us a message on Instagram at Diva underscore tonight.