From the Archives-- Beyond the Mom Label ( Nicole & Marie)

Motherhood can be the best thing you do and still be the hardest job you’ve ever had, especially when the systems around parenting make everything heavier than it needs to be. We sit down with Nicole and Marie for a real conversation about what happens before and after the baby arrives: postpartum complications, medical trauma, the fourth trimester that nobody treats like it matters, and the mental load that follows you into every “normal” day.

Nicole shares what a home birth feels like when care is centered on the parent, then compares it to giving birth in a hospital abroad where the rules and routines shift fast. Marie talks about entrepreneurship, back-to-back pregnancies, and how support from family and friends can be the thin line between coping and collapsing. Along the way, we get into what it means to raise kids with grit and self-trust, how to talk to sensitive kids about being disliked without crushing their confidence, and why there’s no universal parenting manual that actually works.

We also zoom out into the bigger picture: having kids later in life, the tradeoff between energy and wisdom, work-life balance, remote work, and why we refuse the idea that motherhood must replace your identity. If you’ve been searching for honest parenting stories, postpartum preeclampsia insight, home birth perspectives, or realistic advice for becoming a parent in your 40s, this one goes there with humor and zero performative perfection.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a friend who needs it, and leave a review so more listeners can find us. What part of modern parenting feels the most broken to you right now?

Transcript

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Season Reflection And Big Takeaways

Carlene 0:01

Hi, Diva Tonight family. I'm Carlene. And as we look at the best of Diva Tonight, I just want to share that being a little great from um interviewing, but I think what's really interesting is how far we've come with this season. And season four has been an interesting kaleidoscope of the female perspective in many ways. And I think the one episode that was a lot of fun to do, a lot of research, um, a lot of planning ahead was the episode I did with Nicole and Marie. And they came on the show and just got real with me about being moms. There was a lot to it, a lot of ups and downs, roller coaster rides, and a lot of perspective. But I think the one thing that I learned from Nicole and Marie is that being a mom is a hard job. Being a wife is is also a journey. But I think when you have two friends who are there for each other, even when they're about 18 hours apart or more, I think that really shows what friendship really means and how much it adds to our lives. And so I hope that in this episode, when you reflect back on your life, that you've learned a lot about yourself. And if you are a mom or a dad, I hope this episode inspires you to keep pushing on and keep going because the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Meet Marie And Nicole On Zoom

Carlene 1:52

Hi, I'm Carlene, and this is Diva Tonight. I have with me on Zoom the lovely Marie and Nicole. This is my first time doing, I guess, a conversation with two people at once. And since this series is devoted to life at 40, I thought it would be interesting to have you both on the show to talk about, you know, your experiences with being a mom or what we call mom printer. And Marie's like a food printer. Is that right?

Speaker 1 2:26

Mary's little food printer and I enjoy food. But yes, that works.

Carlene 2:30

I saw your little the your little blurb there, and I'm like, oh, that works. Yeah, I like that. So how's it going, guys?

Summer Heat Survival With Kids

Carlene 2:39

How have you been surviving the heat with the kids?

Speaker 1 2:42

Well, actually, I was gonna say, so I have my kids are both in two different schools, two different school boards. So TDSB stayed open. That's crazy. And uh my youngest school board actually just shut down. So we just kind of packed up and we squatted at Nicole's house because she's got a pool.

Speaker 3 3:00

So I was like, I'm coming over. She was like, What are you doing tomorrow? And I was like, why?

Speaker 1 3:15

And I would not have picked a better person to hang out poolside with.

Carlene 3:20

Yeah, I mean, even before we started, you guys were already having your like conversation. I was just laughing in the behind the scenario, and I'm like, wow, this is this is what they talk about.

Speaker 3 3:31

Like that was probably a snippet of what happens every like just through the entire duration of me and Marie hanging out. Like, we can always just find space for any conversation.

Speaker 1 3:41

And at this point in our relationship, like it's funny because at one point we lived together, and then at one point we didn't see each other for like 10 years. And now we have what I like to call a drive-by friendship, which is just like I see her on a weekly basis where she just drops by my house and with a kid and like hangs out and then leaves and picks up her other kid, and it's just great. It's like that's the ideal kind of friendship where it's just it's like when you're a kid and you don't have to actually do anything or make plans, it's just like I'm coming over, and then that's it. And you're it's just it's beautiful, it's sisterhood.

Speaker 3 4:11

But it's easy, like we're never obligated to do anything like specific together. Like, if we want to go out for coffee, we will like it. If you want to sit there and just like you know, bitch for three hours, bitch with bubble tea. Bitch with bubble tea, that's right.

Carlene 4:24

Oh, I like that the whole bubble tea thing. What I mean, there was like craze at one point. I remember just instead of people going to the bar, they were going to have bubble tea. And I was like, What? Is this a thing? It's like midnight, people are drinking bubble tea. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 4:39

Like we had a tradition for a long time where we would just go and have pho, like Vietnamese pho, and we call it our pho and bitch or pho and bitch. There we just like sit there in front of a bowl of noodles and just talk about, you know, our mother-in-laws a lot.

Speaker 6 4:53

Oh my gosh. Just life, you know, life and how complicated it is. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 4:59

We haven't actually been for fun a long time, but we've evolved to bubble tea at the moment, but I'm sure we're evolving.

Drive By Friendship And Sisterhood

Carlene 5:05

With the economy, it was just like a budget, right? So wait a minute, how did you guys meet?

Speaker 3 5:09

Oh, do you want to tell it?

Speaker 1 5:12

The long and short of it is that we met through a mutual friend, and both of us liked each other better than we like that friend. So we got rid of him. We don't talk to him anymore. But Nicole was the best thing to come out of that friendship.

Speaker 6 5:26

So here we go, right? Um, when we first met 18 years, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 5:34

Yeah, because we've we've been friends as long almost as long or long just a little bit longer than I've been married because when we met, it was probably around the December. And we we met like a our friend took us to this ska. Was it ska? I was just a dive bar. I'm in dive bars.

Speaker 1 5:53

Nicole and I have a lot of things in common, but music is not one of them. There's not a lot of overlap in our musicals on it. We just don't talk about music. It's like the one topic we're like, let's just not.

Speaker 3 6:02

But everything I'm like I'm sure it wouldn't be a point of contention, but at the same time, yeah. Like I was dragged to this place where I with the music, I just wasn't feeling it. And I met this new person. I wasn't in the mood, and she was like, This, like Marie was like, you know, who is this Nicole person? She sounds awful or she seems awful, because I was just not in for it. But it turned out that we actually ended up getting along very, very well. And then I was like, Do you want to come to my wedding? Which was only a couple months later. And she was like, sure. And then it's just been from there.

Carlene 6:31

So I'll go to a party. Early invites, I like that. Wow. So you guys are both like now living in in Canada. I mean, did we live abroad? Both of you have, right? No, not me. I've lived oh not you, Nicole has, but like you've you've done, you've gone through a lot. That's a long time. 18 years of friendships. So what what makes a friendship last?

Speaker 3 6:53

I mean, I think that if you can make a friendship last over one of those people being 18 hours by flight away, that you can do it all. So I think it's like um commonalities. We have a we have a lot of things that we you know just really see eye to eye on. We have, you know, things that we love that we share and things that we don't, and things that and that's okay too, because we I find, you know, what Marie finds so interesting, I find I end up finding really interesting. And like we kind of we have a lot of skills that complement each other. Like, you know, she'll come over and start tossing things out of my my wardrobe ever so lovingly and telling me that I have far too many yoga pants, which is fair, but also uh hurtful. And then, you know, um, and then I will skill share and be like, you know, this is not I taught her knitting. I taught her knitting just last week, and she's doing great.

Speaker 1 7:50

But you know, no, for sure. I think it is about commonality. I think it's also about like just honoring our differences too. And yeah, we compliment each other quite a bit. And it's so funny because I've sort of brought Nicole into my work environment and been like, here, come come do this thing, come voluntole to do things for the community. And it's so hilarious to be people like, oh my god, I met your sister. And I'm like, I'm an only child, I don't have a sister, and they're like, Oh, your sister, and it's like, I take it as a compliment because it's like that's great, but like, no, yeah.

Speaker 3 8:21

We'll be standing right beside each other, and like, yes, we're both biracial, but no, we don't look alike. And oh, but by far the best is standing like in meeting Marie's in-laws for the very first time just before she got married. And her father was like, It's so great to meet my father-in-law, father-in-law, father, sorry, father in law. He wouldn't know. Father-in-law said, It's so great to meet Marie's sister. And I'm like, You literally know she's not, she doesn't have a she's an only child, right? Like, she's marrying your son. Don't you know? Didn't know a clue.

Carlene 8:51

It's a compliment, it's great. Yeah, there we go. This it's like you guys mesh so well that everyone thinks, like, Nicole, you're part of the family already. You already just, you know, you just fit in like a glove, right?

Speaker 3 9:03

Yeah, I think that's anything. Marie and I like our friendship has evolved past just being friends. Like, we are very much family. Her kids are, you know, my uh my nieces very much so. One of them is my goddaughter, but like they call me my their aunt, you know. My um my kids call her Aunt Marie. Like, it's just it's that's

Turning Forty And Celebrating Big

Speaker 3 9:21

where it is.

Carlene 9:21

Yeah, no, that's so great. So, what did you guys do for your 40th birthday? Start things off like ah, do anything crazy?

Speaker 1 9:30

Remember, I don't remember my 40th. I remember my 41st was a bigger deal just because of like, I don't know, I didn't make a big deal of my 40th, but my 41st I celebrated in Mexico. So that was a bigger deal for me. But yeah, my 40th was still, I guess we were a little still a little close to COVID-ish.

Speaker 6 9:47

You know, like we're still still dealing with that, right?

Speaker 1 9:52

So not as big of an opportunity.

Speaker 3 9:54

Yeah, I uh I actually celebrated my 40th when I was still living in the UK, but I was exiting the UK, so it was a little bit like normally I don't do big birthdays for myself. I just I all get together with friends, but I don't make a huge deal of it. But it was a huge deal that time just because I was also exiting um and moving back to Canada. So I had like all my friends in the UK got together. We went day drinking, which is like definitely my forte. And ended up How early did you start? Oh in the UK, you there is never such a thing as too early to start. Oh my gosh. I think I think probably around 10 a.m. And then you know, probably I think we capped out probably about 7:30. That was enough. So yeah, but we were doing shots at on at like the gay club at you know 6 p.m.

Carlene 10:41

So wow, you definitely started the year off like with a bang, right? For sure. So, you know, I were talking about like you living in the UK. What was that like? Like raising your kids in the UK, you know, that experience.

Speaker 3 10:56

Yeah, I mean, we really loved it. It was a little bit of a it's like crazily enough, a culture shock because we had moved to the UK after living in um Shanghai for five years. So being so used to Asian culture and then moving back into more Anglo culture was actually shocking, despite the fact that we're Canadian ourselves. And just because, like, as much as the UK is definitely obviously English friendly, it's not Canada. It's very different. Their systems are different, uh, the way that some of them interact are very different. I remember going into the grocery store in my first week and they said, like, you're right. And I was like, why? Do I not look all right? What's your problem? But like that's just like the general greeting, but I didn't know what to do or how to take it. And and like so learning those little like things on the side was was uh fun and challenging. My kids obviously were very fish out of water because you know everyone had expected them to act a certain way coming from Asia when it's like nope, there's still very much Canadian kids, you're not gonna find very much obedience out of them. Like they they just have that streak, and no, they don't fully speak Mandarin, sadly, and no, they're not especially good at math.

Carlene 12:02

So like the the whole stereotype, oh my gosh, right?

Speaker 3 12:06

Yeah, yeah. But we we absolutely loved the UK. We were there over COVID and we still kind of feel like we didn't have enough of it. We did get a chance to explore all over the country, which was lovely, but I mean there's we were very comfortable there.

Carlene 12:20

If the the winters

Parenting Abroad And Culture Shock

Carlene 12:22

were not awful like they are here in the world, I'm trying to remember like what Nicole said about whether or not you've raised your kids abroad or if it was but I mean I raised them here while being an entrepreneur, so I didn't have Matt Leave.

Speaker 1 12:35

So that was its own like little interesting journey, you know, to have back-to-back pregnancies and then just sort of like have like two babies in the crib and then you're like typing out emails. Like it was just a little bit chaotic.

Carlene 12:49

Wow, yeah.

Speaker 1 12:51

I did them here.

Carlene 12:52

Yeah, you know what? I I I don't know if you want to talk about this, but I watched one of your reels and you said that you were talking about your experience with childbirth and how you had some complications. So I watched a bit of that, and I mean, I think that's really brave of you. You know what I mean? To to to take that step. I guess the challenges of motherhood, like even just having a child, right? When there's some complications with that. So yeah, I mean, sure.

Speaker 1 13:24

Yeah. I mean, I always uh I always tell my friends who don't have kids, like, the kids are fine. The systems around motherhood are ghetto. Like all of those systems, every piece of it is just, it doesn't make any sense. And it would just be so much easier to be a parent if those systems were a little bit more concise. But the first one being like how we handle birth in Canada, or I guess the system as a whole is a little bit weird. Um, I had complications with both my pregnancies. With my first one, it was a little bit more medical. I actually ended up being hospitalized for a month before delivering, and then I delivered a month early, and then I went back to the hospital because I had some complications, and that was a whole thing because it's like we don't recognize the fourth trimester. You know, I always tell people it's like if you broke your arm and then I put it in a cast, your arm's still broken. So if you just delivered a baby three days ago, even though you're technically not pregnant, you're pregnant, your body is still very much pregnant, you are still very much in harm's way in terms of like pregnancy-related complications. They're not as common, but it can happen. And I was just not prepared for how my body would react to pregnancy. And then it was a bit of a surprise to get pregnant

Entrepreneur Life Without Maternity Leave

Speaker 1 14:32

three months later and be like, here we are. You know, I was told I couldn't have kids. So it was just everything was just very like we wanted them. Like we actually we tried for for it for the first one. And then it was just we I just didn't think it was gonna happen so quickly and so effortlessly, given given everything. Um, and then with the second pregnancy, that was a little bit more complicated. And we I had an awful, awful experience with the doctor who delivered the baby. She's been accused of all kinds of things and being investigated by the the college or was being investigated for uh gross negligence with regards to like 2,500 women who got exposed to certain things. But yeah, I had an awful experience with her. And I, you know, after seeing that article come out, I I wanted to share my experience because yeah, childbirthing is is challenging enough, but it's more mental than physical. And I can say that having like extra stuff, like a sketchy doctor or like weird experiences like that, just they make them more complicated. And it it really changes the way you walk into motherhood. Because obviously, if you're walking in with some trauma, it's stuff you have to deal with and unpack. And as you're also raising human beings and trying to like, you know, get yourself together and heal and all these other things. It's just a lot, it's just a lot.

Carlene 15:44

Yeah, so you said you had complications with both your children. So was it like did you have like a condition that prevented you

Birth Trauma And Postpartum Preeclampsia

Carlene 15:53

from having an easy childbirth?

Speaker 1 15:55

Like uh, I developed postpartum preclampsia with my first, and most of the time it's preclampsia. It's a condition where like they don't know what causes it, but it's like the placenta doesn't quite attach to the wall properly. And essentially the body starts thinking the placenta is a foreign uh object, you know, and it starts attacking it and the immune system, but like all of your major organs and all of the baby's major organs go through the placenta. So if your body is attacking itself, it's basically shutting down all your major organs. So that was with the first pregnancy, and then I developed it with the second one. Obviously, they knew they were like, There's a good chance you're gonna develop it, so they knew what they were looking for, but with the first one, it was like, surprise, you have to go back to the hospital because you're having a hard time breathing, you know, and you can't walk. And it was just it was a lot. But yeah, I think that that's the thing that probably surprised me about motherhood the most because I mean, even in the books I was reading, I was really reading a lot of like woo-woo books. I really wanted to have like a home birth. I wanted to like Nicole and I, we both are big, like, we do not like hospitals. And she had a home birth, and I was actually living with her when she had her home birth, and I was like, I want a home birth. And I bought a pool and I was like ready to like give birth in my living room, and with no intervention, and I had every intervention, almost every intervention possible. And it was just like that that dream of having my like a low intervention pregnancy just went out the window. Yeah, in your body, surrender to whatever is gonna happen.

Home Birth Versus Hospital Birth

Carlene 17:19

Yeah. Oh, so speaking about home birth, is it cool? How is that having a home birth? Do you remember? Like, oh yeah, I mean I guess I think when it comes when it comes to birth stories, like when people tell you, it's like, wow, I had no idea it could be like that, right? That's the thing that we yeah.

Speaker 3 17:42

Yeah. So for me, like like Marie said, I'm not a huge fan of hospitals. I kind of feel like that's where only sick people go. And I feel like in pregnancy, unless you have complications leading up or whatever, that you are not a sick person, like you're a very well person. And so what medical, right? Like exactly. And so I was really gung-ho on having a midwife and having a home birth, and my family was not, but that's okay because it wasn't their experience. But my husband was supportive, so that's really kind of all I needed. And when I went into labor, I didn't know I was in labor. And the only reason I really kind of knew I was in labor is when Ben my husband started buzzing around the house and being like, like just like preparing, you know, calling like Jen, my our other friend to pick up the dog, like Marie knew about it, like everybody, and I'm just like, what's happening? Um, but then yeah, then I had a home birth in my bedroom with my lovely midwife, who also didn't think that I was in labor until she saw me, and then she was like, Nope, you definitely are. And then I mean, I didn't do any, you know, training on breathing or any uh hypno therapy or anything like that. No Lamas class? No Lama's classes, no, I just kind of went with it, and I'm lucky that I have a very high pain tolerance, like that's something that I just have always had. So uh it was a great experience. He was out in 12 hours and healthy and happy, and you know, I was also very aware that if um something was to go wrong, I was only a certain like five minutes away from an actual like hospital I could get there, and we were prepared for that like possibility. But nope, very lucky everything went through fine. And in China, I didn't have the luxury of being able to have a home birth. My second one I had in Shanghai, and we had to be in a hospital, it's by the government, and um it went as expected. I wasn't able to, you know, be in the birthing positions that I wanted to be that made me comfortable. It was all about kind of more based around the doctor and how comfortable they were in me giving birth, and which was very different from having my bin bike, which was all mostly centered the care around me and making me comfortable. Regardless, Orin came in a good four hours, um, which was you know very uncomfortable. But he did come out and yeah, like in less than 24 hours, I was walking myself out of that Chinese hospital while they chased me because they didn't think that I could walk, but I could. And they chased me down the stairs until I got into my car and was like, sign the papers. And I was like, Oh yeah, I have to do paperwork for you know when I give birth. But yeah, I I love my home birth. I would have, I would, if I had any more kids um I do that I do not want, then I would probably have to be. I would just say I'm like, the answer is no, need to be. The answer is no more children. We're good.

Carlene 20:18

We're good. Yes,

Why People Have Kids Later

Carlene 20:19

yes. I've read, you know, what I was reading stats, guys, and they say, like, we in in our time now, like in in I in our generation, we're having less kids. And I think there's a lot of factors that come into play with that. I was reading this article. And yeah, I think we're women are having children old older later in life, and they're also focusing more on their careers. So as both career women, why do you think that's the case? Like it's so different from like 50 years ago.

Speaker 1 20:48

How old were you, Nicole, when you had pie? I was 28. Okay, I was 33. So we're on the older side of things.

Speaker 3 20:56

I guess it's funny because, like, in my family, I was definitely like over the hill. Like my my my family was like all the women in my family before I came along, and I'm the only female in my generation of my family, um, all of them had their kids before they were 20. And, you know, they were far more invested in me having a child than me getting married. So, and I was like, no, thank you. I'll have them when I'm ready. And so, yeah, 28. And I think that, you know, when people say, Oh, the declining birth rate and oh, women are having uh uh children old older, that's why is that a bad thing? Like we have so many people in this world, so many kids who are being unloved. Like, why do we need to pump that in um into that system more? And also, you know, like we why is it not okay to give women the space to live their lives before they start families?

Speaker 1 21:46

I was gonna say, like a big part, like, you know, I tell my kids, I'm here to raise you, to help you learn how to be like, I can't tell you what to do your whole life. And like for me to even have a resemblance of like anecdotes to share with my kids. I needed to live my life, right? I've done the good, the bad, the ugly. I've done all kinds of things. I've had all kinds of experiences. And I can share with them the learnings, right? And I tell the kids all the time like, it's like fuck around and find out, right? There's two ways for you to learn about things in this world is you can experience them yourself for better or for worse. Or you can learn through people that love you, that that care for you, that want to share their experiences with you so that you can sort of like reap the benefit of just knowing without having to like go through the pain of all of those things. Um, but like for me, you know, without getting to specifics for for my mom's privacy, she didn't have me until she was almost 40. And so, like for me, there was never that pressure to have my kids early. I didn't even know if I wanted to have children. It really wasn't until I met my partner. And I was a stepmom for like uh eight years or no, six years before I was ever a mother. So I kind of got little glimpses. I mean, stepmom is a completely different role. Like you're more of like a supporting cool aunt type of thing, especially as they get older and they're not at your house as much. But like I got glimpses of what it looked like to be in a family unit, and I really liked it. And you know, I think that's that's the thing. Like it's difficult. The hardest part about parenting, like I said, is those the structures and the the systems that make it very difficult. Like, you know, school's done at three o'clock, but all your workplaces are done at five, and like bullshit, like that daycare is impossible to get into, and like all this crap, like that's the hard part. But the kids themselves, like, I'm always like, it's it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Like, you have the best days you've ever had, and then the hardest days you'll ever have.

Speaker 3 23:40

Let me tell you, yes. Absolutely. And like, I don't it I think one of the key things that you said is like, you know, sharing your experiences. And I just think that women who are older have more experiences to share, like they have more lived experiences, they have so much more in-depth education knowledge, like to share when parenting, which I think is so valuable because you know, kids having kids sometimes it just doesn't always work out. And those people grow up to be older adult parents, and yes, they had now are able to live their lives when they're in their 40s, but then they do stuff that's like, no, you should really only do that when you're 20.

Speaker 1 24:16

Like and I will say, like, there's nothing that kicks up trauma quite like having a kid, because like you're kind of you're either you're either like repeating stuff that you enjoyed from your childhood, or you're potentially remedying things that you didn't enjoy. And so, like, if you're not ready to face to face mirror versions of yourself and recognize that they are not you, so it's like, you know, there's just there's something there where it's like you're there to guide them. You have an opportunity to kind of like resolve your own stuff, but you can't force them to do things, right? And so it's just like it, it's this, it's this dance, and you have to have a certain amount of maturity to understand that and that it's coming for you. Like, I've learned so much about myself through my kids, and they've learned about themselves through watching me as well, right? We're just kind of like bouncing off of each other. But I think if I was in my 20s, like, I don't know, I wasn't ready for that. And like not dogging anyone who has kids when they're young, or you know, it is we all have our own journey. But I remember kind of like, you know, having my first and being pregnant 33 and people playing, oh, you know, having your kids young means you have more energy. And I was like, I guess. But I mean, I'm trading off energy if I guess for wisdom. So I'm okay with it. I'm okay with that.

Carlene 25:31

You know, yeah, it's it's tailoring off because I had another guest on the show, and she had her first child in her 30s, and then her second in her 40. And I think she was better prepared for her second child at 39, well, 3940 than she was in her 30s, because, like you said, even though you have the energy, you don't have

Wisdom Energy And Parenting Triggers

Carlene 25:50

the wisdom. And I think then it's probably the best thing because you're talking about trauma, and that's something um I can't relate because I do not have kids, but I know from talking to my sister that she said, if you don't have those things resolved, they come out. Yeah, yeah. Is there did you find like there's certain things that did come up where you're just like, I didn't expect that? Or I mean, like, is parenting, there's there's no one book. I think Nicole and I talked about that over email. Like, there's no perfect manual book out there. I mean, you can read everything in the book about parenting, but until it actually happens.

Speaker 1 26:33

I think Nicole and I are both big on like grit and resilience, like embedding that into our kids. And I mean, I have two girls, she has two boys, so it's gonna look very different. Like, grit and resilience are gonna look very different. But I know, like for me, like I my kids are very different from each other. And one of my kids is like super, super, super sensitive. She wears everything on her sleeve. Like, you can tell when she's she's got big emotions, she has big feelings. And, you know, talking to her about what it looks like when people are mean or they're bullying her, right? And and saying sort of like, and I know that my parents would have never said this to me, but I'm like, it's okay that people don't like you. And it's okay that you don't like people. Doesn't mean you can be mean to them, but not everyone has to like you, and you don't have to like everyone, right? But you just stay out of their way. And as in I'm like, and as an adult, it's no different, you're gonna meet people that you're not gonna like, but going out of their your way to be a dick to them, that's a different story. So it's like making that differentiation, being like, this is totally normal. It's totally normal for you to meet people and be like, these really aren't my people, but that's a very different experience than you know, than being mean. So it's like sort of separating the wheat from the chaff so that she can sort of be like, it's okay that this person doesn't like me. But what's not okay is that they're being rude to me, right? And so even making that differentiation, like that's not something that I would have gotten as a kid. It would have been like they're jealous of you, right? Are they about me? Are they? And it's like, no, I don't think so.

Carlene 27:55

No, no, yeah, it's just like not the talk that you want, right? It's not supposed to like build your confidence, but I think what you said to your daughter is so true. But I think um we had this conversation. I just remember this is going after that you guys were talking about how your kids are learning like their strengths, like in terms of like personality. I think you were saying, Nicole, like one of your sons knows he's learned how to get what he wants, like with certain things. Yeah. And do you remember? Like, I think you briefly said that last time. You know, like learning at a young age, like this is how I can get what I want.

Speaker 3 28:33

Oh, yes. So I mean, my youngest has always been like adorable. And he came out adorable, and he would charm the pants off of anybody. And I remember before he even started school, he was always very well acquainted with all the teachers that were going to be his eventual teachers, and they were just like, we have to work out, look out for him. And they eventually ended up having a meeting about him being like, Listen, you gotta look out for him. He will use every charm in the book, he'll bat his little eyelashes, he'll smile his little smile, and he will get out of it. And it's so true. Like, Orin is a master at that kind of cute privilege, very cute privilege. I feel like now that he's preteen, it's starting to rub off a little bit because you're like, no, now you're just smelly, you're not as cute. He still has it, he still has it in there though, where people are like, look at him, he's adorable. And you're like, no, no, no, no, don't trust it. Don't trust it.

Speaker 1 29:30

So yeah, I have a I have one of I mean both my kids are really cute, but again, they're year apart, and one of them likes enjoys performing femininity a lot more than the other, right? She's like the girliest of girls, right? So it's like taking everything and frills and bows, and like I I mean, I I lap it up and I give her like some of my old costume jewelry

Kids Personalities And Social Bias

Speaker 1 29:50

and stuff, and like she's very much the girliest of girls. And my other kid is not as interested in leaning into femininity. It's pretty neutral across the board, you know, like and she really doesn't care. But it's interesting to see how people are react to them. And so sometimes those reactions have a bunch of bias that we that we have as a society, you know, like one kid will do something, it'll be perceived as maybe less annoying or less offensive, and then the other kid will do it and it'll be seen as more aggressive, just because like one isn't leaning into femininity as much. In fact, a lot of times one of my kids gets misgendered um as a boy. And I mean, they all kind of look they all kind of look the same, right? But I mean, she's got short hair, they both have short hair, but again, one of them has a little bit more of a generic look. And yeah, it's very interesting to see how how a potential boy would be treated versus a very feminine girl. And I don't love that, like I don't love that juxtaposition. I just I think at the end of the day, they're kids, right?

Speaker 3 30:47

They should they should be yeah, well, because they feel it too, right? Because I remember there was one part where your eldest was like upset that the a lot of the attention was focused on the youngest because she's so cute.

Speaker 1 30:59

People walk up to them be like, she's so cute, and then not even comment. Oh, the other one, and again, I'm telling you, I'm like, they're both very cute. They're just they've just they they don't even look alike. I would argue that Nicole and I look more alike than my kids.

Speaker 2 31:14

Yeah, probably.

Speaker 1 31:16

You know, and this is this is I mean, both Nicole and I are interracial, and so like our kids are as well. So it's just one of those like, you know, throw dice in a in a thing, get a shake, and and we end up with whatever. I have one kid that's got like curly, sandy brown hair and blue eyes. I've got another one who's got like straight brown hair and brown eyes, and they just they don't look anything alike. But, you know, it's just it's very interesting to see how the kids are treated by others. And I think, you know, part of our job as parents is to remind our kids who they are because we're witnessing them at in multiple areas, right? We we've gotten to know them before they went to school. We get to see them with their friends, we get to see them with family, we get to see them in their best times and their worst times. And I think as we get older, even myself have experienced that when you have that like little crisis where you're like, who am I? And what am I supposed to do in this world? And like, what's my purpose? And like, oh, like this whole thing. It's nice if you your parents are paying attention, it's nice for them to be able to remind you, kind of like, this is who you are. You know, don't let this get you down.

Speaker 32:19

Diva, tonight, glamour for your ears. This is 40, a female perspective.

Speaker 3 32:26

Yeah, and to be accepting of that as much as possible. Like, I I mean, my sons have evolved through their experiences for sure, their experiences with living overseas and multiple moves, and you know, these uh situations where they've been forced to create brand new friends groups for themselves, or it like I've had to create for them and they carry it forward, either or, and it's been challenging at times for them and it's really molded who they are. I have one who, you know, started off as very much as an extrovert, easy to make friends, and he's kind of gone a little bit more introverted because you know the timing of our moves um has been more difficult for him at his age stage, uh, versus my youngest one, where he's always been put in situations where it's like instant friends. So he has those kind of easier times at being an extrovert and joining things and being social. Now, it could also be part of stages because you know, Marie has younger kids, my kids are a teen and preteen, and uh, hormones come into play, all kinds of stuff comes into play. I don't I can't even handle it. Like I male friendships are completely different balls, completely different too. Male friendships. Wow, yeah, like um a lot of boys these days are very completely fine with their friendships are done through screens. Like that's how they conduct their friendships, and they don't necessarily hang out as much anymore. Um, or if they do, again, it's through a screen. Um, and that's very different from how I grew up, where you know, we would get together. We still and I still very much get together with my friends. I see Marie every week. It would be weird for me if I it it is weird for me.

Speaker 1 33:55

If you guys were doing like Zoom calls and you know, like having a lot of meme sharing, like egregious amount of meme sharing that happens on all platforms.

Speaker 3 34:05

If I don't hear from her for like two days and I'm like, she dead, so like there's something wrong. You good? You good, you laughed. I haven't seen a laboo in like 24 hours. You know? So um yeah, and just being accepting of like you know, the stage that they are, because you'll get a lot of comparisons in parenting. You'll get a lot of people being like, Oh, well, mine does this, yours doesn't do this, and mine acts this way, and yours doesn't. And you know, for a while I was really worried that my kids weren't normal, right? But like they're normal in their way, which is exactly where they need to be. And I think well, I think Maria was you that was like you you meant you mentioned my eldest and like how chill he was, and how like he seems very confident in who and stuff. Yeah, I'm trying, and I was like, Yeah, you're right. Like he doesn't need to, he's not the preening type of boy. He doesn't get up in the morning and uh 45 minutes early and make sure his hair is right, make sure his clothes is right. He's like he's a a kid that a 14-year-old kid who's not at that stage yet, and I'm okay with that. And that's normal too, like to just you know, be easy in in who he is, so yeah, yeah,

Boys Friendships And Screen Life

Speaker 3 35:11

yeah.

Carlene 35:11

So we've talked a lot about like motherhood and like your own trials and tribulations, but like career, like I mean, do work during you know the day and so how do you handle that? Like, you know, the challenges of like you know, work and then balancing your home life, because yeah, my work experience has been all over the place.

Speaker 1 35:32

So I mean, when I had the kids, I was an entrepreneur, and that was like it had it had pros and cons. And I mean, I think they were kind of the double-edged sword, right? So it's like it's like pro, no structure, con, no structure. So it's like my day could be whatever, but then it could be whatever. And so, like, you know, boundaries and limits and all that stuff with your work, it like kids are boundary and limitless at that age because they just need you. And like, of course, your your business is boundless and limitless at that age as well. So it's like it was really hard juggling the two. But when the pandemic hit, so my kids were about like two and a half and one and a half and two and a half when when the pandemic hit, and I was already used to being at home with them and they weren't in daycare, they've never been in daycare. And I remember I got my first corporate job just for like it was like an eight-week contract that ended up lasting six months. And there's a couple of things that I noticed. Like, one was like watching other people lose their minds about having their kids at home, and me being like, oh, like it's hard or something. Like they knew it was hard, but it was just the reality of watching like successful people just lose their minds about like, what am I gonna do with these kids? How am I gonna do this? And I was like, I've normalized this thing that people are losing their minds about. And I it kind of gave me grace to kind of be like, this was really hard. And I should be easier on myself and be proud of what I was able to accomplish during that crazy time.

Carlene 36:56

But it was how are you able to accomplish it? Because you said like the whole structure thing, did that go out the window? Like, I mean, like they're they're a year apart, and then you're managing your taking away the you know, sending an email to a client. Yeah.

Speaker 1 37:11

I mean, my health was really hard. I I'm really lucky that I have a really good, like between my parents and my in-laws, I have a lot of support. I think most of more support than most people that I know. My parents are retired. Like I went back to the hospital for two weeks after having my first. So literally, I had a baby, I went home for three days, and then I had to go back to the hospital for two weeks without the baby, right? You're not like dragging a baby with you to the hospital. So my mother-in-law actually took my baby and like raised it for the first two weeks of life. And that was hard. And then, like, you know, we did catering. And so when I had to be on site somewhere, we always had a friend or somebody would come help a friend of mine who was trained to be a PSW. She came

Work Life Balance And The Village

Speaker 1 37:55

in and she helped a lot. And she was just like, sometimes it'd be like, Hey, do you want me to come over just so you could take a shower? And I'm like, Oh my god, yes. You know, and it's it's like it takes a village. And of course, Nicole was, I think, still in China, potentially, I believe. During COVID?

Speaker 3 38:12

No, I was in the UK during COVID.

Speaker 1 38:14

Yeah, but it it's but it's interesting to kind of like like I have different markers of like what friends were there based on like where they were and where I was in my life too. And then now I work for a nonprofit where like I work from home, I have a very flexible schedule. I finally have found a place where having children and being able to demonstrate my ability to manage all of the crazy things that come with kids, the schedule, the home, the everything, right? It those are assets and they should be. I think a lot of times employers look at women of a certain age as a liability. It's like, oh, you're gonna have to dip out early to grab your kids, or like, oh, kids are sick. And it's like, yeah, my kids are sick, I can still get shit done. And it's like, yeah, I have to dip out to go get my kids. But like, again, unless you're doing work that requires you to be on site, like my husband's a chef, so he has to be on site. All my work can be done remotely, and I do it remotely. And it's like, there's no obligation for me to go into the office or for me to show face just for some arbitrary like corporate culture. Meanwhile, like my kids are in daycare and I'm spending like crazy amounts of money. Um, but yeah, like everyone keeps asking me, like, what are you gonna do this summer? And I'm like, My kids are gonna be here, just like they are every summer. You know, like it's nothing's changed. It's like we we're just continuing what we've been doing. And like now they're they're old enough that they can pour their own cereal and they can watch TV and they can, you know, they can read a book and they can like they can take care of themselves to some extent. I'm in my office, it's like in my bedroom, it's like one door over, and we're in a small condo. It's just, you know, it works. But I know it doesn't work for everyone, but it works.

Speaker 3 39:53

I I left, I left a 13 for well, yeah, 13-year career um in television and radio to be an expat um for my husband's career. So um we moved over to China for his job. And when we got there, I was what's known as a tie tie, which is you know, women who lunch, like ladies who lunch. We don't, we don't work. Like we we kind of piggyback on our husband's work visa, and typically we're not allowed to work over there. So, you know, it became my focus to raise my kids in the first little while until I got bored because I am, if anything, a serial hobbyist. I always want to do something. I have to keep myself busy or else I go crazy. So I I I had the opportunity to become an entrepreneur and I like evolved myself through business over there. I, you know, I started uh writing for a magazine, I became a columnist and I created my own graphic design giftables business, which was crazy. And I made these pillows, which were, you know, I kind of wish that I discovered my um my business in that earlier because it was it was really lucrative and really fun. At one point I had like 300 pillows piled up in my doorway, and people were like, What's going on? And I just like pillow business at Christmas, it was crazy. And my kids would be like, you know, what is this? And I'm like, it's mommy's job, and they're like, job? Like, what do you mean, job? I thought your job was going to the the um shopping mall. And I was like, Well, that is also my job. Yeah, you know, and then in the UK, when we moved there, it the thing is that for me for the last 10 years, it was kind of stop and start because I was like, Well, do I start a career? Are we gonna move? Will I have to end my career as soon as I started? Like, what's get you know? So I would just kind of do things that brought me joy, which I really appreciate having the abilities and like the privilege to be able to do that over the time that I was away. Not everybody has that luxury, but it kind of gave me the space to figure out stuff that I really love to do. And I was volunteering, which I found, you know, really uh fulfilling. And then when I came back here, I was like, well, how hard is it gonna be to bust back into an industry that I haven't traditionally been in in 10 years? And thankfully I had a friend who was really motivated to get me into her company, and so I've been working with her for uh two years, and it's just a small company, and we work remotely, which again, it's so appreciative to me to be able to work remotely because I get to still be here when I need to be here for the boys. I get to be flexible and I get to, you know, have that luxury of being able to pick them up from school when they need to, while still being able to make meetings that I need to. Like I appreciate the whole businesses being allowing their employees to go remote when they need to, because you know, let's be honest, we don't all need to be face to face. We all zoom anyway half the time. So yeah. Um, and it's been interesting being back in in a traditional like a work life or work um environment over the last two years, which is you know, even now I'm just kind of resist how do I get back to crafting only? How do I get back to lunching only? But you know or knitting projects. My knitting projects. Well, I'm the crochet queen. You you insisted on knitting, which I still don't understand, but I'll I'll turn you to the dark side soon.

Speaker 1 43:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Remote Work That Actually Helps Families

Carlene 43:07

Yeah. Oh my god. But the thing is though, like when you work from home, I think do you find like you get so comfortable now that you work from home that like meeting up in person is a thing. You know what I mean? I think um, do you feel like we've become complacent because of technology in that sense, you know?

Speaker 1 43:25

I don't think the technology technology should be about efficiency, but it doesn't replace the face-to-face. So, like again, I I work with uh like I'm on a team with three other women were we're kind of like, I think I'm the only one who doesn't go to the office because it's a Don Mills and Eglinton and I'm not about that. And not about that commute. Um like our our, I guess, customers were nonprofits. So like our our um our participants, they're all entrepreneurs. So if everything was in person, if I was meeting with everyone in person, it would be also annoying for them. Too. So it's like there's efficiency. It doesn't replace the face-to-face. We still get together from time to time. We give opportunities. I'm I'm the community manager. So I do a lot of events and stuff like that, like farmer's market, for example, on the weekends. But I find that there's a lot more understanding around what that looks like. So I'll give an example. Like I am a salaried employee. I work nine to five Monday to Friday, technically like on paper. But like I run a co-run a farmer's market that's on Saturdays. It's like, okay, well, my husband now works on Saturdays. So I dragged my kids to a farmer's market and my boss was there. And instead of it being like a can I bring my kids? It's like I'm bringing my kids. And like, you know, she's literally playing connect four with them. And like again, that there's an opportunity for there to be like an ecosystem that includes the kids. I've also seen that, like, even in my now, I'm sidetracking, but like even in my friendships, some of some of my friends who don't have children, I've seen them be kind of like, bring the kids. And it's really nice because it's like it gives you that family feeling where it's not my kids aren't like some dirty little side accessory that I can like unclear. Oh no. Yeah. You know, and like sometimes you have friends where it's like, especially if it's like drinking friends or like partying friends, you're like, maybe I only see you when I don't have my children. But generally speaking, like as I'm getting older, I'm prioritizing people and business ventures and opportunities that kind of allow me to show up as my whole self, including being a mom, as opposed to situations where it's like, you know, you work for corporate and then they're like, yeah, it's all great, but you're gonna pretend like you don't have kids, or like friendships that are only like the richness is only the depth is only there because like you don't have your kids around you. It's like there's gotta be balance there.

Speaker 3 45:41

Yeah, and I think it is it is really about being efficient. Like I find that uh since I'm able to work from home, I'm able to, you know, get my workout in. I'm able to take the kids to school and make their lunch. I'm not running around crazy being like, ah, I have to get like on whatever TTC or drive through traffic for an hour to get to my workplace. Like that just takes so much more out of you. Like I I can give so much more to my work when I am comfortable and when I'm not tired or stressed out, and when I know that I have an employer that has my back, knowing that like I will still get my work done. Thank you. But you've afforded me the flexibility to do that. So I mean, I think that it's really an old school thinking that we all need to be in an office face to face all the time. Of course, it's good to get together with your team. And like I said, we do get together, my team as well, um, occasionally. But the reality is that a lot of the work people, you know, we don't live all in one spot. So my clients are all over North America and some in America and some in the UK. So it's like, what am I supposed to do? Fly out every week to meet people face to face, like when I need to? No, because like that's not the kind of job that I would be able to hold with my family situation.

Speaker 1 46:49

So I was gonna say, and like Nicole and I, a little bit different. Like my husband stays local, Nicole's husband travels a lot, but we both have partners who work outside the house a lot. So the fact of the matter is like someone has to be.

Speaker 6 47:04

Someone needs to supervise the children.

Speaker 1 47:06

Someone's gonna make sure things get done.

Speaker 3 47:08

I need to make sure my kids are eating more than random three times a day.

Speaker 1 47:12

And so it's nice to be able to have a career because it's like that's that's a lot of like you know, like and no no disrespect to anyone who wants to be a stay-at-home mom or who can afford to be a stay-at-home mom or anything. I think that's great too. Like it's it's fantastic. Whatever works for you works for you. But I know, you know, for me, it's like I need motherhood is part of who I am, but it's not all of who I am. And I wanted to make sure that that there were still pieces of me that existed outside of my kids, and there's room for, you know, my passions and my learnings and the things I like to do. Like I freelance model and I, you know, there's all these other things that I want to do that I can do that are outside of motherhood that I think again enrich those experiences that I can share with my kids.

Speaker 3 47:56

Yeah, it makes you a full person that you're able to then like you dial that down to your children and through your parenting. Like, you know, you have to have a life outside of just your home family life sometimes. I think to make keep yourself sane.

Speaker 1 48:12

So otherwise your kids are gonna be 18 and you're gonna fall apart and you're gonna have your existential crisis of like, who am I? What am I? Because you why am I? We are hyphenated beings, um, and we move through this world with all of those different things and those different titles. And motherhood's just one that gets added on, and it's it's an intense one for 18 years, but it never really goes away. And at the same time, it's not like the basis of who you are as a person.

Speaker 3 48:36

Yeah, it's always been just a part of me, it's never been me, right? Like it's something that I elected to do for myself, like for our ourselves, my husband and I, but it's never been this is what I am now, you know? And it's funny because like when you become a mom, a lot of people want to pinch a hole into you into a mom, mom role. So, like when I even when I started doing writing, they're like, Well, you're gonna be a mom blogger. And I was like, What's that supposed to mean? Because I mean, I am by no means an expert on parenting. Don't look at me for that, right? Like, I am I have no training, so like I'm not an expert. I I actually have a lot more opinions on many, many other things other than just being a mother. This is not the entirety of who I am.

Carlene 49:16

So, what do you say to someone who is in their 40s and they're considering becoming a parent?

Having A Baby In Your Forties

Carlene 49:23

Like, what is your advice? Like, but you're old.

Speaker 3 49:25

No, no, you're tired. Don't do it. No, um, I mean, everybody starts their family when they feel like they need to, or you know, when they're mentally, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, uh, I have friends that are definitely starting to have babies now or are having their their second or third now. And if that's the right for them, then that's right for them. I'm I think it comes with their own challenges though, because I mean your body is not the same as it was when you're much younger. You know, your level of tiredness is the same, your your level of patience is not necessarily the same. And when uh at this stage when we're starting like the perimenopause is start taping in. Yeah, yeah. I like sometimes I lose my damn mind, and I can't even imagine being pregnant and losing my damn mind, or like, you know, or like, you know, be having a newborn and losing my damn mind. And that's just personally for me. But I say, you know, go for it. If this is what you want, it doesn't matter what age you are, go for it. You'll be happy, be be confident in your choice.

Speaker 1 50:23

I think people are really risk averse as they get older. So I think the only piece of advice I would give is like it's never gonna feel right. No, it's like you're never gonna feel ready. I mean, maybe some people are, but I've heard people be like, Well, we're not ready, we're not in the right house, we're not in the right, and I'm like, never will be. I don't know. Like, uh I ran a business, and I will say running a business is very similar to having kids, a family, like structurally, it's very like there's a there's a lot of overlap there, and it is your baby in a way, and you know, when you don't know what you don't know, when you walk in with a little bit of ignorance, sometimes it it works in your advantage because you're like, I didn't know. And um no one's not me. Then you find out really quickly, like, oh shit, you know, like I feel like if if you if you like really researched it, like if you really like know the ins and outs, like you will never know the ins and outs, and because every kid is different, every pregnancy is different, every like everything is different. My kids are a year apart, and I can't think of two more different kids. The other thing too is like the your parenting style, like my parenting style.

Carlene 51:27

What is your parenting

Free Range Parenting And Letting Go

Carlene 51:28

style? Oh god, helicopter mom?

Speaker 1 51:30

No, no, no. I would consider myself a free range parent. I kind of observe what they're doing and like make edits as I need to, as opposed to I try not to like there's some proactive pieces of parenting, and then there's some reactive, and then there's just sort of like observing because a lot of it is like if I'm like careful, careful, be careful. It's like that's not helpful.

Speaker 3 51:58

Oh my god, I have to say, we were at a park. This is I was visiting in from China or so no from the UK, I think. And her Marie's eldest was just let's say two. And I remember she was up on this jungle gym, like at the top, and I'm looking at her and I'm looking at Marie, and I'm like, should she be up there? Marie's like, yeah, it's fine, she likes to climb. I'm like, okay, like that's cool, right? Meanwhile, like so many other moms would be like underneath them, being like, oh my god, like be careful. Hold on.

Speaker 1 52:23

And part part of it is like it's that particular kid, is like she had a lot of confidence. And the last thing I want to do is project my insecurity and fears of her inability to do something onto her. So sometimes I'll be like, You feeling safe up there? You feeling good? Yeah, I'm feeling good. Okay, do you have a plan on how you get to get down? Like asking questions like that instead of just being like, careful, careful. Now, my youngest would never dream of doing that. She'd get up on one step and then just be like, Mom, I can't, I can't. And so it's like you have to know who your kids are. You know what I'm saying? And it's like kind of adjust your parenting per kid. They're not getting the same experience, they're not getting the same experience, they're getting equity and not equality. Like, it's just you have to kind of adjust, which is hard when they're both kind of in the same stages, but they have very different needs. So a lot of it's like kind of have to split yourself in half and be like, oh, gotta be here and here, you know?

Speaker 3 53:17

Yeah. And I've mentioned to you how, like, you know, uh, there's so many different parenting playbooks out there about how to raise kids. And like, yeah, sure. Some of them work, um, they don't work in entirely, some of them don't work. Like, it's just you can take bits and pieces of everything, but there's never going to be a whole plan on how to raise raise a child because at any given time I cause my children trauma. And I know that. I'm just like, whatever I do.

Speaker 1 53:39

You'll be in therapy because of something we've done. 100%. I'm past the point that you know, I'm like, we're gonna be doing the battle, though, you know, like knowing we're gonna mess them up somewhere.

Carlene 53:52

Like the school system, right? I mean, I don't know. I think I think with technology, we're living in a different time. So um, I think like you said to me, Nicole, you do the best you can. And I think the one thing I read too is that even with all the resources out there, there's always gonna be something that contradicts. Like I remember reading a sociology article, and she said that, and it made me think of what you said, Nicole about how there is no right way to parents, even if you have the information, there'll be something that contradicts that article in another article, or one parent will say this and then you know, so it makes it really I feel like the only difference between a a parent who's just out there parenting and like a person like who is a parenting expert is that like someone took all of their stumbles and falls and put them into a book and the other people didn't, right?

Speaker 3 54:44

Instead, I pour I pour all my stumbles and falls into Marie, right? And be like, I fucked up. And that's just it. Nobody, nobody knows what necessarily what they're doing because every child is so different, and you have to parent them in completely different ways um sometimes, and my way won't work the same for my boys as it would if I was to try to parent Marie's kids, and vice versa.

Speaker 1 55:08

Like, you know, you know, they do have evidence of what a child like you've experienced your childhood, so you do have evidence of things that like you have an idea of what what worked and what didn't work. And I think that this is where like you get into like stage mom situations or people who are like projecting onto their children, it's like they are different than you, yeah. But you do have the opportunity to sort of share with them things that you enjoyed. And if they take to it, run on it. If they don't take to it, keep looking, keep working with them, listen to what they want. Like, I think kids are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. Like, I I went to Montessori school when I was really, really small, and I always I always joked that like Montessori is like supervised neglect, you know. You're basically like, here's a step school, do it for yourself. And that's, I mean, like, you know, come for me, but that's basically what it is, right? And it's not a bad thing, but it's it's about teaching them self-sufficiency. You mentioned hop helicopter parenting to me again. That's like it's clipping their wings, it's like stopping them from being able to see what the limits of their own possibilities are without you. My job is to encourage them to become themselves. It's not for me to do everything for them. Of course, if they need help, I'm here. But even the act of learning how to ask for help, which is something a lot of our parents, like a lot of us as even as parents, we have to learn. Like, I knew I had to learn that as an adult. It's like, how do I ask for help without feeling like I'm not capable? It's like, it's okay, we can do that. But then we have to teach our kids how to do that stuff, how to function in society and community.

Speaker 3 56:33

Yeah, and like I grew up with like I grew up, my grandmother raised me and she was fairly hands-off. I kind of feel like she was like, Well, I've I screwed up five other kids. So this one I'm just gonna do whatever with. And I came along and I was like, you know, got good marks and was in sports, and she was like, I she she she parented me but barely because she just she just let me do whatever because I was always just kind of like that kid that always um did well in whatever. And you know, my kids, they're not quite that. And my husband is like he focused on tiger parenting. So it's like in his background tiger parenting.

Tiger Parenting And Rethinking Success

Carlene 57:10

I want to know what that is.

Speaker 3 57:11

Oh, basically, it's this like generational trauma that pours in from specifically immigrant families who, you know, struggled so hard to get to where they are now to give you the best of life. So now you have to excel at everything and not just excel, but be the best, like be the most excel excellent, excellent of everyone. So, you know, you're getting an A, why didn't you get an A plus? Right? Like that that whole mentality. And my husband grew up in that kind of environment where he was expected to, you know, he didn't get toys, he got calculus books for Christmas. Like that's just this true. So and he kind of feels like, you know, if your kids aren't getting things like A's in in school or they aren't like passing every, you know, swim test on the first try, then he's like, Well, what have we done with your life? What are you doing with your life? Meanwhile, I'm just kind of like, you know, people have to be given the opportunities to fail. People have to be given the opportunities to find where their strengths lie, and it doesn't always lie in what you would hope for them, right? So him and I, we have this kind of um interesting balance of parenting styles that we we all sometimes butt heads over it. And it just comes from again, like how we were raised, right? So we're trying our best, and hopefully our kids will try their best. Like that's all we can hope for. So yeah.

Carlene 58:36

Hearing you talk about your husband, I can relate because I had those tiger parents, and I think when you have parents like that, it does traumatize you to the point where you're like, Well, I got the A, now you want the A plus. And even when I got the A plus, you're you want A plus plus. So the sentence are like good enough.

Speaker 1 58:53

Yeah. My dad was a bit of a tiger parent, and he was also a teacher, and so academia was extremely important for him. And it's it's what pulled him out of poverty, right? Like it's it was his key to success was through academia. So like I don't I think part of it growing up is also empathizing with your parents in a way where you're like, oh shit, like I get I get how that got twisted that way, and I get how that got manifested that way. I didn't love it at the time, didn't love spending my summers doing like math and French homework, but like I understand where it came from. And there are there are those, there are pieces of my childhood I want to replicate with my kids. But at the same time, I'm like, academia is just one way of evaluating intelligence, and I just don't want to get lost in the sauce that like somehow a grade two teacher's opinion on my kids, like reading and writing is like the be all and all because age and aptitude and all that stuff, it takes it takes everyone their own little time to get there, right? Like I struggled hard as a kid, like as a young kid. And I mean, I moved provinces, I moved from New Brunswick to Ontario. I barely spoke any English when I came to this province. I certainly didn't feel comfortable in it. And I went to a French school, so I didn't learn how to read and write in English until like grade seven and eight. Like I was a really, really late, late at the party, right? And so high school got a little bit better, college got a little bit better, university got into the honor roll. Like as I progressed, it got easier for me. So I remember like my trajectory wasn't always this like perfect academic record. And I was definitely like looked upon as like, why aren't you getting there? And it's like I'm just I have a little bit of that grace for my own kids who are also going through their own journey of academia and we're making changes and we're we're you know, but recognizing that like this is not the only measurement of intelligence that's out there, and they still have a bright future even if they're not like we're successing your kids, like to feel an end all.

Speaker 2 1:00:49

Exactly.

Final Thoughts And Stay Connected

Speaker 2 1:00:50

Exactly.

Speaker 1:00:50

Diva Tonight with Carlene will be back. Send us a message on Instagram at Diva underscore tonight.